What's the Limiting Factor???

[LJ4174]

Hey Folks...

So after trying to figure this out on my own, I finally did a google search for Ford Expedition Forum and came across this great site, read a few others, but this one seemed the best, and already read a bunch about towing with an Expedition... So here goes my question, sorry if it gets a bit long...

OK, so I'm familiar with towing and currently tow a 21' camper with my explorer. Keeping the Explorer, but also looking at an Expedition, trading in the 2011 Taurus... Can you tell I like Fords???

Anyway, so I have 3 young kids, 3, 5 & 7 - reason for an SUV instead of a truck. We also want to upgrade our camper. The camper we like is 35' long from hitch to bumper, has a dry tounge weight of 720 lbs and a dry weight of right about 7000 lbs, but a gross weight of 8300 lbs. So I'm sure loaded and such I will still be within my weight ranges, depending and here's where I'm running into issues... First off, does this seem reasonable to tow with an Expedition. Not full time, maybe 6 times a year, most trips no longer then 3 hours, most an hour or so, but may take a longer trip here and there.

I will be using a weight distribution anti sway hitch... Reese Straightline System...

So I'm obviously looking for an Expedition with the HD tow package and the 3:73 gears. I'm seeing various stuff about the payload capacity though and this is what I'm concerned about. I see specs for this as high as 1800 lbs, but when looking at Expeditions, I'm seeing less then 1500. So trailer, lets say 900 lb tounge weight - that is only leaving 600 lbs for the wife, kids, dog and gear. I think I will be very close or even over this 1500 lb limit. So how important is this? What is the limiting factor here and what do I need to look for, for an expedition with an 1700 or 1800 lb payload capacity? Do the wheels have anything to do with this? 20" vs 18"?

We really like the EL version for the extra space, but my thoughts are the extra space and length is also using extra weight, dipping into this payload capacity. So is the 12" extra wheel base WAY better for towing or will I be OK with the regular size Expedition, with a higher payload and higher towing capacity, it will also fit in my garage easier as well...

Any thoughts or suggestions will be greatly appreciated!!! The VIN checker I found on another thread on this site will be a HUGE help... I asked 1 dealer about the gear ratio and they sent me back the gear ratio of the transmission and each gear. Another dealer told me it had the towing package, but I just needed to add the 7 pin connector. Another dealer told me 3:73 gears get better gas milage then 3:31's, but the 3:31's can tow more... ERRRRRR!!!!

Thanks...

LJ

 

[LJ4174]

...

 

[Captain Morgan]

You bumped your own thread after 14 minutes?

 

[LJ4174]

Yeah, come on... I need answers!!!

No, I bumped it because I forgot to include notification on my original post and couldn't edit it for that... Here I thought you had something for me...

 

[Big White]

I would pose the same question on the escapee forums...
My guess would be you really want a diesel excursion.

 

[brockncole]

I would think you would need to stay in the 7000 total gross range. I have a 30' TT and I am in that 7000 range and it is ok I would like an EL just to have the extra wheelbase on the windy days. I have an '03 and it does really well other than in the wind, but not sure that anything would do any better. The fuel milage is absolutly terrible, our vacation was a 3 1/2 hr. trip and I was in the combined MPG for the trip at around 9. I would say any more weight and length would be too much. Just my thoughts.

 

[splintrcel]

You would be pushing high limit of the transmission at that kind of pay load. The tranny is rated for around 10k. At that kind of loading i have no idea how hot the tranny will get even with a cooler. If you want to tow that much the expedition is gonna get dragged down like crazy. You would be better off throwing a supercharger on it otherwise its gonna take forever to get up to speed and you will be downshifting all the time. I have towed up to 7000 lbs and it worked pretty well but thats also including payload. MPG is not really a factor you can care about when buying an expy. They all get decent economy for a truck but you have to remember, you are driving a truck, not a car. Buy the truck with the towing package. It will have the optimal gear ratio and should have the 4 pin and 9 pin connector built in. If it doesnt it prob doesnt have a towing package so be sure to check on that.

 

[Dib52]

Kinda need to know what exactly you're looking at. Being in Berks, I'm assuming 4x4 so you give up some in capacity right there. If you go EL, you give up some more. Ford and the bean counters have been messing with the tow ratings from year to year.
As far as gearing...the EL comes with the 3.73 and IMO the better choice in towing gear. The regular wheel base Expy comes with the 3.31 and the 3.73 can be optioned in when choosing the HD tow package option. That option also gives you the 7 pin and all the goodies. And contrary to what the dealer said about mpg, the 3.31s are the mpg leader not the 3.73s.
As frame of reference, my 08 is optioned out with the HD/3.73 and my rating is 9100. Even in that configuration, I'd be leery of putting something that big behind me. There would not be a lot of wiggle room with a TT of that size. Can it do it, probably...but you run the risk of beating the crap out of the tranny. Panic stop...tail is gonna wag the dog.
Give us some more specs of what you're looking at and we'll try to give you a better answer. And say hello to all of my friends and family in Reading!!

 

[tonydiv]

In general, here is a list of the limiting factors for towing. (in general order)

Transmission cooling
Engine cooling
Braking
Rear suspension load
Drivetrain load
Tow bar limitations
Engine limitations


As you tow heavier and heavier, this is the order that things go wrong.

This assumes a weight distributing hitch, like the op said he was using. With a regular hitch, rear suspension moves up to #2(ish) on the list.

 

[LJ4174]

I would pose the same question on the escapee forums...
My guess would be you really want a diesel excursion.

See, that's the thing. If you look at especially the diesel excursion, the payload capacity is only at 1500ish lbs as well, so you need to put heavier springs on it. Not sure I want to deal with this or a used excursion, however this is an option (maybe)

I would think you would need to stay in the 7000 total gross range. I have a 30' TT and I am in that 7000 range and it is ok I would like an EL just to have the extra wheelbase on the windy days. I have an '03 and it does really well other than in the wind, but not sure that anything would do any better. The fuel milage is absolutly terrible, our vacation was a 3 1/2 hr. trip and I was in the combined MPG for the trip at around 9. I would say any more weight and length would be too much. Just my thoughts.

We are looking at the oldest being an 07, but would rather have something newer...

You would be pushing high limit of the transmission at that kind of pay load. The tranny is rated for around 10k. At that kind of loading i have no idea how hot the tranny will get even with a cooler. If you want to tow that much the expedition is gonna get dragged down like crazy. You would be better off throwing a supercharger on it otherwise its gonna take forever to get up to speed and you will be downshifting all the time. I have towed up to 7000 lbs and it worked pretty well but thats also including payload. MPG is not really a factor you can care about when buying an expy. They all get decent economy for a truck but you have to remember, you are driving a truck, not a car. Buy the truck with the towing package. It will have the optimal gear ratio and should have the 4 pin and 9 pin connector built in. If it doesnt it prob doesnt have a towing package so be sure to check on that.

Thanks...

Kinda need to know what exactly you're looking at. Being in Berks, I'm assuming 4x4 so you give up some in capacity right there. If you go EL, you give up some more. Ford and the bean counters have been messing with the tow ratings from year to year.
As far as gearing...the EL comes with the 3.73 and IMO the better choice in towing gear. The regular wheel base Expy comes with the 3.31 and the 3.73 can be optioned in when choosing the HD tow package option. That option also gives you the 7 pin and all the goodies. And contrary to what the dealer said about mpg, the 3.31s are the mpg leader not the 3.73s.
As frame of reference, my 08 is optioned out with the HD/3.73 and my rating is 9100. Even in that configuration, I'd be leery of putting something that big behind me. There would not be a lot of wiggle room with a TT of that size. Can it do it, probably...but you run the risk of beating the crap out of the tranny. Panic stop...tail is gonna wag the dog.
Give us some more specs of what you're looking at and we'll try to give you a better answer. And say hello to all of my friends and family in Reading!!

Yeah, I told the dealer he had that backwards... Basically looking at a newer Expedition with the HD towing package with the 3:73 gears.

In general, here is a list of the limiting factors for towing. (in general order)

Transmission cooling
Engine cooling
Braking
Rear suspension load
Drivetrain load
Tow bar limitations
Engine limitations


As you tow heavier and heavier, this is the order that things go wrong.

This assumes a weight distributing hitch, like the op said he was using. With a regular hitch, rear suspension moves up to #2(ish) on the list.

So here's the thing. Even the 3/4 ton suburban only has about a 2000 lb payload capacity, not mure more then the expedition, especially one that has an 1800 lb payload capacity... As I said, even the excursion only has a 1500-1600 lbs payload capacity, so should I really be concerned about this number? What makes one expedtion with the HD tow package have say a 1600 lb payload capacity and another, same configuration with a 1500 or 1700 payload capacity?

Thanks for all the replies...

 

[LJ4174]

Oh, hey Dib... If I see your friends I'll say what's up!!!

 

[LJ4174]

So also, I'm curious as to thoughts concerning a truck and even an F150 - the payload capacity is similiar and maybe even less then the expedition, but as far as wheelbase is concerned and size, a F150 or F250 even has the same size give or take as an expedition, so what differs there? Obviously the F250 has stiffer suspension...

 

[Dib52]

So also, I'm curious as to thoughts concerning a truck and even an F150 - the payload capacity is similiar and maybe even less then the expedition, but as far as wheelbase is concerned and size, a F150 or F250 even has the same size give or take as an expedition, so what differs there? Obviously the F250 has stiffer suspension...

Gotta remember that the truck platform utilizes the leaf springs out back where the Expy is using IRS. Put some weight on the Ex and there is more squat side to side with the weight bring supported by coils. On the truck, leafs and solid axel supports the weight. Now to cloud the waters further, you can get an Ex with an optional rear leveling air suspension to help in the towing duties.
As far as payload capacities across the Ex line, mid 1500's to low 1600 is the best you're gonna get. 2 adults and 3 kiddos and gear and you should be fine, there's wiggle room there.
For what you are considering with the TT, the EL with rear air leveling and HD tow is the animal....good luck finding one. Still gonna max it out though

 

[RI-Matt]

Kinda need to know what exactly you're looking at. Being in Berks, I'm assuming 4x4 so you give up some in capacity right there. If you go EL, you give up some more. Ford and the bean counters have been messing with the tow ratings from year to year.
As far as gearing...the EL comes with the 3.73 and IMO the better choice in towing gear. The regular wheel base Expy comes with the 3.31 and the 3.73 can be optioned in when choosing the HD tow package option. That option also gives you the 7 pin and all the goodies. And contrary to what the dealer said about mpg, the 3.31s are the mpg leader not the 3.73s.
As frame of reference, my 08 is optioned out with the HD/3.73 and my rating is 9100. Even in that configuration, I'd be leery of putting something that big behind me. There would not be a lot of wiggle room with a TT of that size. Can it do it, probably...but you run the risk of beating the crap out of the tranny. Panic stop...tail is gonna wag the dog.
Give us some more specs of what you're looking at and we'll try to give you a better answer. And say hello to all of my friends and family in Reading!!

Dib52, I noticed this too about the towing capacities varying from year to year but was wondering where you came up with 9100lbs ? I too have an 08 4x4 w/ HD pkg and everything I've seen it's 9000lbs with no difference in capacity between 3:31's and 3:73's. Going to an EL 4x4 cuts the weight down to 8750.
What's interesting is for some reason the 2011 Expys have the weight down to 8900 for standard length and 8700 for EL, again with no difference in gearing. Then for 2012 and 2013 the go back up to 9000 and 8700.

Either way according to the charts I've seen the MAX GCWR is 15000 ( vehicle, trailer, cargo and people )


Matt

 

[sgtowing]

I don't care what specs you were reading about excursions.I personally know of excursions with well in excess of 2k lbs in them plus people and it did just fine. Ford has tendency of under rating their super duty line trucks and that is what an excursion is. Plus the chassis is built on a larger f250 platform and you would get better mileage with the diesel. I love my expedition but I think you would be better off in an excursion.

Sent from my Galaxy SIII Using Tapatalk2

 

[Dib52]

Dib52, I noticed this too about the towing capacities varying from year to year but was wondering where you came up with 9100lbs ? I too have an 08 4x4 w/ HD pkg and everything I've seen it's 9000lbs with no difference in capacity between 3:31's and 3:73's. Going to an EL 4x4 cuts the weight down to 8750.
What's interesting is for some reason the 2011 Expys have the weight down to 8900 for standard length and 8700 for EL, again with no difference in gearing. Then for 2012 and 2013 the go back up to 9000 and 8700.

Either way according to the charts I've seen the MAX GCWR is 15000 ( vehicle, trailer, cargo and people )


Matt

Oops, miss quoted...just went out and checked it...9000 lbs by the book. A little more reading a couple pages forward it mentions 9100 w/WD hitch. And the EL gets 8700. Regardless, 15000 GCWR across all platforms. The bean counters are at it again for the differences between model years.

 

[splintrcel]

In my pic its my blue expy but the other expy is the 4x4 EL towing package with rear air suspension and it tows the hell out of anything. We also run a sway bar and LDH which has always kept the trailer on its wheels even when the trailer has blown a tire. A diesel truck however will better handle the load you specd out. You can never have too much truck. You could however get an expy and get a smaller trailer. Our trailer is 25 ft with a 5 ft hard slide in the rear(keep it clean) and we fit 7(4 adults, one teen, and two babies) no problem. Our trailer also has like a decent kitchen and a shower. Just a thought. Dont buy a featherlight though, the chassis on those bend like no other due to poor engineering and lots of unsafe weight reduction.

 

[LJ4174]

Thanks for all the replies folks... Still not sure what I want to do... The problem with an Excursion is just the age of them and they are tough to find... A truck, as much as I would love one, doesn't seem practicle for us... That's the thing too, do I want a 3/4 ton truck or SUV to go camping maybe 6 times a year? Besides camping this will be used by the wife to get groceries or vacations/trips without the camper... Hmmmmm...

 

[brockncole]

I miss my Pick-up but love the Expy. It only made sense for us to get rid of my truck since it was the oldest vehicle. There are a lot of good campers out there take you time and find one that fits the tow vehicle and your needs.

 

[LJ4174]

Yeah, the one that fits are needs and wants is the one I mentioned... I went camping as a kid in a truck camper and van and even a popup and tent a few times. Now that I'm the Dad and taking time off work to go camping, I want to be able to relax as well and not be cramped in a camper with the wife, 3 kids and a dog... Guess we'll be looking or considering some Excursions... I really wish Ford would make the Expedition just a bit heavier or put, or make an option for the solid rear axle... I was talking to my buddy last night about this and he said the same thing...