Crank, no start. @10 minutes - reset(?) - starts, runs fine.

[Don Hall]

2004 XLS 4.6 --- 2nd event in 2 months.

Drove the xp in the AM - all good. Shopped at Costco - no start to return home. Prior event I was in shock to notice any dash info. This time I had my senses - no security flashing, but still tried another key. Still no start. Fuel gage slightly above 1/4 tank.

Waited for about 10 minutes in hopes it would reset as it did before. After about 10 minutes, it started up, and ran fine. Checking to see if it was a fuel problem, I filled up at the Costco station. The attendant let me keep the xp running during fill up.

I noticed the fuel gage did not move as fuel was added. The nozzle kicked off, but the gage showed about half a tank. Attendant said he added 16 gallons of fuel. Being familiar with the vapor canister problem, I'm thinking that may be my problem.

With the fuel gage reading just above 1/4 tank, I should have added more than 16 gallons to a 27 gallon tank. I may need new a vapor canister. Will have my shop test, and replace, if necessary.

On the way home, the fuel gage moved to almost full. At home, turned off xp, then restarted....all is fine.

Bought the 2004 in 11-2005 new...... 18,000 miles now.

I'm badly crippled with arthritis, so I'm at the mercy of others---I'm 86.

Thoughts ?

EDIT: Online info suggests not to have the key in the 'on' position', or engine running during refueling. The fuel gage will not record accurately until the next run cycle.
That answers my gage concern above.

 

[1955moose]

I think you hit it. My 2000 has been doing the no start deal too. My feeling is leaning towards a failing fuel pump. I don't have any problem fueling or a premature shutoff. My pump is18 years old, its time! Check your fuel pressure, see if its above 32 psi, and holds pressure.

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[Don Hall]

Thanks for the prompt response, moose. "I think you hit it" ....... what did I hit? .....vapor canister?

Will add a fuel pressure test to the list.

 

[KC1903]

If you can check fuel rail pressure, of not consider replacing the fuel pump driver module which is located on the frame rail just above the spare tire. There won’t be any codes.

 

[Don Hall]

Thank you, KC. Would a faulty/failing fuel pump driver module present the symptoms I have described?

From an online source:

Failure

The fuel-pump driver module is the most common part to fail in computerized diesel engines. When first installed in the technologically advanced diesel engines of the mid-1990s, the modules were made from materials that were unable to handle their own high operating temperatures and the extreme vibration they were exposed to when functioning. In some model vehicles, such as General Motors vehicles made between 1995 and 2002, the failure rate has been almost total. Aftermarket units are available that use advanced electronics that create less heat, with an improved heat transfer pad to minimize retention of the heat. Pairing the fuel-pump driver module with the incorrect fuel pump will also promote failure.

Symptoms of Failure

Symptoms of a failing fuel-pump driver module all manifest in the performance of the engine. Difficulty in starting or a smoky start-up, stalling or uneven running while idling, hesitations and misses when driving, and power surges when in reverse can all -- separately or together -- be indicative of a failing module. Failure can normally be diagnosed electronically using a handheld scanner, with the model-specific code displayed that translates to the fuel-pump driver module.

And, yes, there are no codes (should have mentioned that in my first post).

Will add this part to my "test" list.

 

[1955moose]

Didn't realise the post was from you Don. Kc, the first year for the Fuel pump driver module was on the 2005 model with the 5.4. At least on the Expeditions, the F150 pickups might have had it in 2004. They had the 3 valve motor a year early, and the 3.5 engine 3 years earlier than the Expy. He had the last year 4.6 motor. On my 2000, I blew the fuel pump relay about a week back. Since replacing it, it started, but sometimes it doesn't start. My thinking, and correct me if I'm wrong, the pump is drawing too much current, and that's why it blew the relay, and intermittent won't start. I wait 10 seconds or so, I'm sure that duration will get longer, then fires. I think I'll order the motorcraft $290.00 ouch pump. I hate to take a chance on the cheaper ones. Anyone had good luck with Bosch, or Delphi, or any in the $100.00 to $150.00 range. My original went 18 years. Kind hard to argue with that Number.

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[KC1903]

Two things to consider:

A) every ford Truck I have owned represents an average on the fuel gage, so if you will with the key on then it will take a long time before it rises to a true level.

B) the Expeditions have an electrical connector on the gram underneath the drivers door, failure or corrosion in the connector impacts the fuel level gage and it frequently reads E when physically only 1/2 tank.

Good luck, sound like evap canister or vapor lock to me.

 

[1955moose]

I only had one car that was hard to top off, my89 Lincoln Mark 7. It only gave me trouble at certain pumps. Others were fine. I think on that vehicle, I had a combo problem. It didn't hold pressure on a fuel pressure gauge, and the evap solenoid/ tank probably had issue. Did the smart thing, sold it for $2800 bucks, bought the neighbors Expy for $3000, and met all you guys!

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[Don Hall]

Thanks KC, and thank you for the good wishes.

I have never watched the fuel gage move during refueling as the key is always in the 'off' position. This was my first time refueling with the engine running.. But, after prior fill-ups, the fuel needle always moved to the max mark rapidly after turning the key to 'on'. I don't know if operating the exp during refueling made a difference in needle movement today.

I experienced a failed vapor canister on my wife's mustang. Symptom was a little different than what I am seeing on my exp. The only time she was aware of a canister problem
was during refueling. The tank would only take about 1/2 capacity, then shut down. No start problem, or operational problem, just tank capacity.

I have confidence in my shop owner/tech, so we shall see, and I will definitely report the findings.

 

[Don Hall]

Nice story, moose. This forum is lucky to be the beneficiary of your knowledge, and talents. Always look forward to your informative posts.

Any more 'noise' from me will have to wait until tomorrow..... off to bed.

 

[Don Hall]

New day..... spent the am reviewing owners manual, and google solutions to various no-start conditions.

Into the xp.....turned key to 'on'. all dash lights seemed normal. Fuel needle rose rapidly to near the max position. XP started nicely, no check eng. light, or other malfunction
indicator lights.

Back to google for no-start conditions. Low fuel is one condition. Again, the fuel gage was showing a tad above 1/4, and the station fuel pump showed 16 gal. delivery.

A major concern is what is RE-SETTING to allow the xp to finally start after about 10 minutes. Can't find an answer (considering I'm not the sharpest tool in the box).

One precaution I am going to take is to refuel at 1/2 tank, may not be the solution, but we shall see over time.

I think the vapor canister has been eliminated as the problem, and I am not concerned with fuel pressure at the present.

 

[1955moose]

Thanks Don, you only get this knowledge from first hand experience. Some good, some so bad, you remember it, when you get so old, you can't remember anything else, but you can still remember 1971 scary ain't it. You've got some great stories too, love hearing them. 86:years old and still driving Corvettes. John Wayne would have been proud!

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[Don Hall]

Tech and I agreed..... no sense in testing a perfectly running truck with no codes. Only clue to 'crank-no start' condition (twice in 2 months) was that it occurred with fuel at the
1/4 level. Fuel gage works perfectly, so the float may be sending a faulty message to the PCM (?). Temporary solution is to refuel at 1/2 tank level (that is not a hardship as the
truck is only driven 1200 miles/year) and see if that solves the problem. To drop the tank and replace the fuel pump is about $750. Best not to throw parts until testing is completed,
and confirmed.

 

[David Kuchler]

i have a 2006 Expy, your symptoms are identical, the 10 minute thing, I replaced a relay in fuse block, and problem was solved, the fuel pump driver board when it failed on me it was over never ran again till I replaced the board
I went to pick and pull and took all the relays outta the fuse block passenger side wall front seat area, and they where all made in Italy, the ones in my expy where made in us, all mine had been hot by the coloration on the terminals when I pulled them, the Italian made where clean as day new, and came from an older expy but where identical.
pictures don't lend justice to the heat the us made had endured but attached for review

 

[Don Hall]

DAVE, thanks for the informative post. Did you happen to notice the fuel level at 'crank, no-start?

 

[David Kuchler]

Mine occurred coming home from the lake with boat in tow, no warning, truck just shut off, I pulled to side of road, was calling for a tow, and after about 15 minutes it started, fuel level 1/2 tank or higher, then again 5 miles down the road, it shut down again, and 20 minutes fired right up, then 5 miles later shut down again, 20 minutes fired right up, and one more time prior to arriving home, then it ran fine for a week, and I was heading out of town, in a snow storm full tank, got caught in a chain up area, and when traffic cleared it died, 20 minutes fired up I turned around and went straight to pick and pull replaced the relay, and never happened again that was 6000 miles ago

 

[David Kuchler]

Hey Don
I can run down and replace those for ya, if ya have room on that boat go get us some salmon of the coast there ))))

 

[Trainmaster]

If the car is running when you fill it, the gauge won't come up right away. That's normal. It will take about ten minutes to register the new fuel level.

 

[Don Hall]

Hey Don
I can run down and replace those for ya, if ya have room on that boat go get us some salmon of the coast there ))))[/QUOTE

Thanks for the offer to replacer the relays, David. The second boat owner from me allowed the boat to wash up on the boardwalk beach during
a wind storm, and it had to be cut up for removal. There certainly would have been enough room for a salmon trip. The boat packed 14 tons,
but the salmon population has been very scarce of late.

The problem would have been with your trip from Reno, unless you hired a rental vehicle.

My xp has never stopped running, only failed to start near 1/4 tank. So, there may be a different problem. As mentioned earlier, I'm going to refuel
around !/2 tank as a test.

 

[1955moose]

Hey Don, just noticed your in Santa Cruz, 95 miles from DalyCity. You very well could have a failing pump. You or some shop needs to run a pressure test, particularly if you can make it act up. If you had a 2005, I'd say maybe the fuel pump driver module. Mine was giving me intermittent no start, or long Crank last week. It seems fine now, but I'll probably need a pump too. Maybe one of these weekends I'll make it down south, and we'll get together.[emoji2]


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