Multiple misfire after fill up - coincidence?

Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

Matticus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Posts
127
Reaction score
36
Location
Salt Lake City
2012 EL - my wife filled up the car at Costco and, within a few minutes/miles after driving away, the car start shaking like crazy. I drove out to see what was going on. Sounded and ran horrible. Initially, code showed a pending misfire on cylinder 3. I got it home and ran it a little more to see if I could get a definitive code. It finally gave me a misfire on cylinder one and two (never did on #3). So, I swapped the coils on cylinder 1 and 2 with 5 and 6 to see if I could narrow down coils vs plugs. Cleared codes and started it up. Still threw codes on 1 and 2 and also threw p300 (multiple misfires)

I figured it must be plugs. They haven't been changed since I bought the vehicle. So, I did a quick plug swap (motorcraft oem plugs), cleared codes, fired it up and got the same codes again. 300, 301, and 302.

Plug wells were dry. Not a hint of oil/coolant leaking. So I started wondering if it's reasonably likely I got a batch of bad gasoline. I'm not really sure how I would check that...not sure where to drain out 35 gallons of gasoline!

What would be good to try next?
 

1955moose

Full Access Members
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Posts
6,004
Reaction score
1,351
Sounds like water or something in their fuel. If it ran fine before fueling, oh well!. Maybe a nearby shop can drain and refuel!

Sent from my N9131 using Tapatalk
 

Dorzak

Full Access Members
Joined
Jan 28, 2018
Posts
450
Reaction score
123
Location
California
Years ago mechanic recommended denatured alcohol added to a tank to break up water. I think that was when mom’s vehicle went downhill.
 

Gregg Eshelman

Full Access Members
Joined
Jun 13, 2018
Posts
127
Reaction score
30
Location
Idaho
Something to try. Let it sit for a couple of days then try to get a really small diameter vinyl tube down the fill tube. If there's a check valve ball in there you might be able to get past it, might not.

If you can get a tube in and down to the bottom of the tank you should be able to pump out a few gallons and hopefully get out any water. Any of those gasoline 'antifreeze' and other things that are supposed to take care of water in gasoline can only do anything with a very small amount of water.

What happens when water gets into an ethanol/gasoline mix is the water makes the ethanol separate. It essentially 'washes' the ethanol out of the gasoline. The ethanol/water combo will settle to the bottom of the tank. In a vehicle that's not flex-fuel the lower energy density of the alcohol, combined with the water, will make it run like crap because the computer cannot compensate by injecting more.

Of course crap like getting bad gas or the fuel pump dying most often happens when you fill the tank up to the top. 100% of the electric in-tank pump failures I've had in GM, MoPar, and Ford have happened immediately following a complete fill.

Where to drain 35 gallons of gas? Buy or borrow seven 5 gallon gas cans. Or see if a salvage yard has a 40 gallon rear tank from a 'square body' GM truck from the 70's and 80's to use as temporary storage.

If it does turn out to be an excessive amount of water, you should be able to let it settle then carefully pump the water out of the bottom of whatever you decant the truck's tank into. A pump like this works and won't blow you up. https://www.amazon.com/Ketofa-Siphon-Liquid-Gasoline-Plastic/dp/B004107292

I used one of those to pump a veritable lake of water out of the bottom of a tank in an old Nissan, which had a removable plate in the bottom of its trunk, and another on in the top of the tank. So nice to be able to pop open a hole around 8" diameter and see the pond under the gasoline. Sucked out about a gallon of water, re-assembled, installed 8 new spark plugs in the 4-banger (yeah, like an old "twin ignition" setup from the 1930's) and it started right up.

Something to do once you get the suspect gasoline out is to put a little into a shallow container like a tuna fish can then light it. You should get a *much* smaller scale version of this kind of flame. Of course do that *far away* from anything that'll go *foomp*.

I got some really bad gas in a 1998 Sebring convertible. Ruined the expensive pump, of course after a full fill. That fuel was extremely difficult to burn. Once I got it lit the flame was very low, not roiling at all, extremely smoky. I suspect someone screwed up at the tank farm and got some transmix into the tanker. Might've been mixed with diesel or some other petroleum product. Of course the gas station wouldn't pay for the damage to my car, or any of the other vehicles that "fuel" ruined the pumps in.

Last vehicle I had a pump die in was a 2004 Dakota crew cab. Easiest way to fix it was to remove the bed, then drop the tank. Having the bed off made it much easier to get at the hoses under the back of the cab.

Installing a new pump would be a very good idea, especially if you find a lot of water in the tank and if you've 100K plus miles on the truck. You don't want to have to be dropping the tank again.
 
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.

jeff kushner

Full Access Members
Joined
Nov 30, 2014
Posts
2,330
Reaction score
1,276
Location
North of Annapolis
They do make Fuel driers which from what I understand, encapsulate the droplets of water, allowing them to pass, abit roughly.

Ethanol is VERY hygroscopic and one shouldn't even let the cap off a non-valved gas tank. I used to run Radio control gas cars and used a typical mixture of 20% nitromethane, %70 methanol & 10%castor and it was the methanol a close chemical relative to ethanol that made us have to toss unused fuel after a couple of months, even capped because the act of removing and replacing the cap was enough to ruin the fuel. Most of us incorporated a pump to our supply bottles to eliminate that exposure....yes, it's that bad.


good luck
jeff
 

Yupster Dog

Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
Posts
1,535
Reaction score
1,064
Location
Virginia
2012 EL - my wife filled up the car at Costco and, within a few minutes/miles after driving away, the car start shaking like crazy. I drove out to see what was going on. Sounded and ran horrible. Initially, code showed a pending misfire on cylinder 3. I got it home and ran it a little more to see if I could get a definitive code. It finally gave me a misfire on cylinder one and two (never did on #3). So, I swapped the coils on cylinder 1 and 2 with 5 and 6 to see if I could narrow down coils vs plugs. Cleared codes and started it up. Still threw codes on 1 and 2 and also threw p300 (multiple misfires)

I figured it must be plugs. They haven't been changed since I bought the vehicle. So, I did a quick plug swap (motorcraft oem plugs), cleared codes, fired it up and got the same codes again. 300, 301, and 302.

Plug wells were dry. Not a hint of oil/coolant leaking. So I started wondering if it's reasonably likely I got a batch of bad gasoline. I'm not really sure how I would check that...not sure where to drain out 35 gallons of gasoline!

What would be good to try next?
Call Costco, If it was the gas then I am sure your not the only one and they already know about the problem. Let them pay to have the problem resolved.
 

1955moose

Full Access Members
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Posts
6,004
Reaction score
1,351
That's what I always say. You shouldn't have to eat this, if Costco can't manage their fuel pumps, they shouldn't sell it. As I've said before, start with the Store manager, and go up the ladder from there. Regional manager, Corporate, etc. Tell them you want it taken care of at store level, but your willing to get Bureau of Auto repairs involved. Big companies will pay a small amount like yours to go away. They don't want bad PR.

Sent from my N9131 using Tapatalk
 
OP
OP
Matticus

Matticus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Posts
127
Reaction score
36
Location
Salt Lake City
I called and spoke with the warehouse manager early this morning. He said that there haven't been any reports yet. He asked for my info so he could contact me if anything comes to light. With Costco, I generally trust them to do right by their customers, but we shall see. I'm going to do some basic injector check on my lunch break today. I've posted here about vibration issues I've had with the vehicle that I initially thought I solved with a new set of tires, but a little while after the tire replacement, new struts (needed replaced anyway), various control arms, etc I started to feel an ever so subtle vibration when cruising on the freeway at ~65-80mph that was come and go with out any sort of pattern. I'm starting to wonder if I had symptoms of an injector starting to go bad, but not enough to throw a code. And now, it's just finally crapped out and it's a coincidence that it happened right after filling up. I'm also going to do a little coil unplugging/plugging in to see if it helps support the idea of a bad injector.

If that doesn't reveal anything, I'll have it towed to a shop and see what they say. That will probably be the best way to determine if it's bad gasoline or not
 
OP
OP
Matticus

Matticus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Posts
127
Reaction score
36
Location
Salt Lake City
Well, this suck. I listened to each injector and they all sound great. Checked the resistance across them and they are all within about .2-.3 ohms of each other. I also tried unpluggin/plugging the coil packs to see if I could glean anything from a change in idle. So, I called AAA and had it towed to shop. I think it'd be great if it was just bad fuel, but it sure doesn't seem like it the more I futzed with it. It seems like bad fuel has a more uneven stumble...sort of sporadic even if the misfires are close together. This is a consistent stumble/misfire like a cylinder or two are completely dead. I'll report back with what they tell me.
 

bobmbx

Full Access Members
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Posts
1,200
Reaction score
627
Location
Virginia
You're blaming misfires, on only two cylinders, on bad gas. Does that make any sense? No.

Its not the gas.
 

1955moose

Full Access Members
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Posts
6,004
Reaction score
1,351
Coincidences don't make sense. Pull your fuel filter, take a small sample, you'll see water floating if it's there. Beyond that, do the usual, fuel pressure test, smoke motor, etc. It's possible your pump was going out, or that hose near the pump went south, deteriorated and refueling just triggered it. I've seen stranger crap just unplugging things to do something else. How do you tell a customer their stator on their Kawasaki isn't charging now, but I was nowhere near the area. I was fixing a misfire at 5,000 rpm. Sh## happens!

Sent from my N9131 using Tapatalk
 

bobmbx

Full Access Members
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Posts
1,200
Reaction score
627
Location
Virginia
Coincidences don't make sense. Pull your fuel filter, take a small sample, you'll see water floating if it's there. Beyond that, do the usual, fuel pressure test, smoke motor, etc. It's possible your pump was going out, or that hose near the pump went south, deteriorated and refueling just triggered it. I've seen stranger crap just unplugging things to do something else. How do you tell a customer their stator on their Kawasaki isn't charging now, but I was nowhere near the area. I was fixing a misfire at 5,000 rpm. Sh## happens!

Sent from my N9131 using Tapatalk

My point is that the gas affects all cylinders, not just two. If fuel was the cause, no matter the manner (water, pressure, flow, etc...), all cylinders would be misfiring. Since they aren't, the common cause of fuel is ruled out.

The OP is left with plugs, COPs, or injectors on the misfiring cylinders as the culprit. Since he swapped the COPs and has new plugs and the problem remains on the same 2 cylinders, whats left?

I doubt the fueling at a COSTCO is related to the failures. Coincidental at best.
 
Last edited:

1955moose

Full Access Members
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Posts
6,004
Reaction score
1,351
I 100 percent agree with you guys, it seems next to impossible. What about if dirt in the fuel plugged 2 injectors? Those 2 injectors. He's done the first steps of misfires plugs and coils, next is testing injectors for pulse, then pulling injectors themselves. What's left, his motor? His cylinder miss is side by side, #1, and #2, a head gasket would trigger those 2. Hopefully for our friend, that's not the case.

Sent from my N9131 using Tapatalk
 

bobmbx

Full Access Members
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Posts
1,200
Reaction score
627
Location
Virginia
I 100 percent agree with you guys, it seems next to impossible. What about if dirt in the fuel plugged 2 injectors? Those 2 injectors. He's done the first steps of misfires plugs and coils, next is testing injectors for pulse, then pulling injectors themselves. What's left, his motor? His cylinder miss is side by side, #1, and #2, a head gasket would trigger those 2. Hopefully for our friend, that's not the case.

Sent from my N9131 using Tapatalk
A chunk of debris that could clog an injector would be caught by the fuel filter. Its possible the filter itself has disintegrated and some of the paper has lodged in the injectors.

The misfiring cylinders being side-by-side means the cabling to the COPs for those cylinders run together for most of their lengths. Its possible that something damaged those wires and is causing a short, which would cause a misfire. That would explain the sudden onset of 2 misfiring cylinders.

I will also assume the injector cabling is laid together, and that wire loom could be damaged and result in misfires.

Fuel quality is almost always the last thing on my list, unless the age of the fuel is a factor....like a chain saw that hasn't been used in a couple of years. "Why won't this damn thing start!"...[cuz the fuel has turned to tar, *******]
 

1955moose

Full Access Members
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Posts
6,004
Reaction score
1,351
Cleaned out my share of clogged motorcycle carbs. If the owners would have put stabil in the gas tank before storage. But glad they didn't cause that was 50 percent of my spring work in my shop. We'll see what our friend comes up with, when he drops it by the shop. Just so weird how all was well till he visited Costco. Weird coincidence. My brother lives in Mexico, they deal with dirty fuel problems all the time.

Sent from my N9131 using Tapatalk
 
OP
OP
Matticus

Matticus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Posts
127
Reaction score
36
Location
Salt Lake City
Well, the verdict is in: Stuck valves on those cylinders. Unfortunately, I think this is the end for this expy. If the valves are stuck open, do they ever get unstuck? I would imagine that if they are stuck closed, the cam and its associated parts would be toast.
 

1955moose

Full Access Members
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Posts
6,004
Reaction score
1,351
Well that blows. And your SUV is only 9 years old. How did they come up with that? Did they use a scanner, a compression test, or pulled that valve cover. Depending on how the valves are stuck open, it's doubtful you can get those 2 cylinders back to normal. Either way that head, and the intake and timing chains have got to come off. Sorry about the bad news. I was hoping for bad gas!

Sent from my N9131 using Tapatalk
 

bobmbx

Full Access Members
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Posts
1,200
Reaction score
627
Location
Virginia
Well, the verdict is in: Stuck valves on those cylinders. Unfortunately, I think this is the end for this expy. If the valves are stuck open, do they ever get unstuck? I would imagine that if they are stuck closed, the cam and its associated parts would be toast.
That sucks. If the piston isn't damaged, you could probably get away with replacing just the upper end.
 

1955moose

Full Access Members
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Posts
6,004
Reaction score
1,351
How many miles on your SUV? It's the newest one here that had motor problems.

Sent from my N9131 using Tapatalk
 
Top