Multiple misfire after fill up - coincidence?

[Sgt Darkness]

Several years ago I started checking www.toptiergas.com to help me stay away from gas stations that do not meet the same standard as stations that have been ranked within the top tier profile. I was surprised and do not buy gas from a non top tier station. Check out toptiergas.com and take a look.

 

[1955moose]

Be glad they don't use those old steel tanks anymore. The dirt and rust was horrible. On top of that, most cars used a much smaller lower pressure filter. Good news was you could buy a car that didn't run, or ran poorly, throw on a new fuel filter, and a set of points, and voila, you had a car for cheap!

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[Adieu]

I can't count how many times I wanted to blame my crappy running cars on bad fuel. But I can count how many times I really did have bad fuel: Never.

Bad fuel happens

It's more common with diesel, but happens with gas too... I once got a tank that gave me a whopping 6 mpg highway --- in a rental 4 cylinder ALTIMA. Tanks before and after were in the 30's.

And with a high performance diesel, you soon learn that about HALF the stations in your area peddle crap. Results vary hugely.

 

[Matticus]

This just got interesting. Pulled the valve cover and was at first disappointed that I didn't see anything obviously out of the ordinary. I then started to turn the engine over slowly with a ratchet and voila! One of the intake valve springs on cylinder 1 was broken. The valve doesn't appear to be bent, either. I moves smooth and easy.

However, cylinder 3 valves are just fine (as are all the others on that bank). So, why did the tech get a vacuum on cyl 1 and 3? I'm actually wondering how he didn't see the exact opposite and say there was a lack of compression on cylinder one since the one intake valve couldn't close all the way.

I'm starting to wonder if:
A) the tech miscommunicated what was going on
B) he read the gauge wrong in some way (not sure how) aka, bad diagnostic
C) he was an idiot/dishonest/lazy

I've always had really good experiences with this shop, so I'm going to give them a call on Monday and talk to the tech and try to get an even more in depth answer on what exactly he did and see if what I found sheds more light on the situation.

Good news is, it's possible I'll be able to bring this baby back to life with just a new spring! I really hope that's the case and the valve didn't get hammered to the point where it wont seal correctly.



p.s. PM me if you need some hand modeling work

 

[TobyU]

See.. What did I tell you....
When one of these has "negative" compression have not open it's always an intake valve not opening. The reason it still has some compression is because it still sucks some are past the Rings and out of the crankcase and stuff like that because it's moving so quickly. But you get that suck back soon as it goes back down when the valve cannot open to let air in.
Make sure you check the bearing in the roller rocker. Usually when the Springs break and the Rockers clack loudly and stuff there is a bearing damage.
Double check that the lifter lash adjuster is nice and solid also and not collapsed. The one I had that the rocker popped out I saw no visible damage on anything but the rocker was laying there in the top of the head so I went ahead and replaced the rocker and the last gesture just to be safe.

To answer your other questions it's because shops are greedy and most tax are ********.
If you tell a customer just one cylinder has an issue they immediately go to in their mind will can't you just fix that one. And I think it should be cheap but when you tell them they have two blown out destroyed messed up no compression cylinders it's easy to convince them to put a new motor in it or rebuild the old one. Most shops don't rebuild they just replace with reman ones. Most shops would rather put a reman engine in it even put heads on a vehicle but regardless they're still making money.
It really doesn't matter why they gave you such a terrible diagnosis. I could have told you as much as you needed to know it's not running right. Let's put a new engine in it.
This happens hundreds of times if not thousands every day in this country and it sickens me.
People who don't have the ability you or I do or most of the others in this forum to find out for themselves and who don't want to bother to get a second opinion because it's probably not worth any more than the first opinion, junk these vehicles, trade them in for nothing, or dump them cheaply because some jerk wants to make a nice profit on a job he doesn't deserve to get.
I bad-mouth them all the time and somebody occasionally wants to get into it with me. Yes I might overgeneralize but the statistics are way in my favor.
Even if you can find a mechanic who will fix the bare minimum to get you going, which is very very rare.. you will still be paying a lot more to get it done then if you did it yourself or if you had a buddy who knows how come over and do it and then take him and his wife out to dinner.
The sad fact of reality is most of them will not do the bare minimum. The minimum that they consider doing and they will do for repair is more than you or I would do and racks up more for their profit.
So if you replace this one valve spring and put it back together you're out a grand total of between 7 and $15. If you had a buddy or swung by and engine head shop they probably give you one.
Now even if the mechanic would have bothered to do this it would probably be worth at least is 1 hour labor which is 75-110 in most areas.
$100 plus the parts would not be unfair not highway robbery for this and as an owner of a vehicle most would be more than happy to pay $100 even a hundred fifty to get their car back running instead of be being told they need an engine.

 

[Trainmaster]

I'm happy for you. That Ford has lots more good miles left.

Check out that rocker arm and give a good look at #3 and its spring and get that sucker back on the road!

I'm with Toby and think the mechanicc's talking out of his a$$. But now you be a good time to check compression on that #3 and #1 yourself.

 

[1955moose]

The real good news is all you have to do is borrow a spark plug compression tester, hook compressed air to the hose end and with a small engine spring compressor, pop on new spring and keepers. Use a magnet, and find the old valve keepers, that are floating around in there. Good luck.

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[Matticus]

I brought that piston up to tdc and the valve rests on the piston, so I don't think I'll even need to do that much. The compression test kit I bought had 5 different fittings and none of them would fit to do what you described...kind of irritating. But, I could just use the rubber tipped fitting if I need to. What is the thread size for these plugs anyway?

 

[1955moose]

14 mm is the size. The reason you need to apply air is to keep valve all the way up, so you can fit valve keepers in. If you let valve drop to hit piston, your down at least a 1/2 inch. Too low to fit the collets in. The only other way is to pull head. You can buy the 14mm hose at Sears or any tool supply. Even order online.

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[TobyU]

14 mm is the size. The reason you need to apply air is to keep valve all the way up, so you can fit valve keepers in. If you let valve drop to hit piston, your down at least a 1/2 inch. Too low to fit the collets in. The only other way is to pull head. You can buy the 14mm hose at Sears or any tool supply. Even order online.

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^ this. You can feed some rope into the cyl and gently turn engine by hand until piston pushes rope against valve to hold it closed. If it moves down at all you won't be able to push valve spring in enough to get keepers in as Moose said.
Definitely want to get those keepers out if you didn't find them laying right there.
You were lucky it didn't drop a valve. That would have been head off at minimum if not hole in piston.

 

[Matticus]

I found that just sticking my air blower attachment in the spark plug hole was enough to get the valve to lift.
The keepers were still in place and I think is the only reason it didn't actually swallow the valve.
If the thread size is 14mm, I wonder why I couldn't get my compression test kit fitting to thread. It has an attachment labeled "M14" so I assumed that was a 14mm. The thread pitch looked the same as the spark plug, too. I could just user error and I wasn't getting the threads lined up right to start.

Today is the big day I found out if this was indeed the only issue. Spring compression tool should be here by this afternoon. I couldn't figure out a way to get a regular spring compressor tool to work without removing the cam, so I just decided to wait a few days until the ford-specific tool came in the mail

 

[WesT]

Was the vehicle running during fill? I as because I have been told that the system will suck air if running at low tank during refill requiring complete system purge of injectors...can't prove it....and rubbing alcohol will absorb water...try a bottle in the tank.

 

[Matticus]

Was the vehicle running during fill? I as because I have been told that the system will suck air if running at low tank during refill requiring complete system purge of injectors...can't prove it....and rubbing alcohol will absorb water...try a bottle in the tank.

Rubbing alcohol isn't going to fix my valve spring

 

[1955moose]

Wes is a little late to the party. Matticus just compare the spark plug to the hose adapter. Both should be the same 14mm diameter, and same thread pitch 1.25 mm. You probably had hose with threads cocked a little. Toby's idea will also work, but theirs the risk of part of the rope getting broken off in there. If you try to use anything but the screw in hose it will be a struggle. The small engine valve spring tools are easiest to do this job. It's a ton of work to pull that head and use a traditional C shaped valve spring compressor.

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[TobyU]

Now I still have a few questions about why it was running the way it was running. If the valve spring was broken on an intake valve that means it would have been easier to press unless it has somehow gotten off of her up above the retainer. But then again, you didn't actually see the compression gauge do the negative impression he was talking about and sucked back in. This is the way you check for mechanical valve train issues. You either cut your finger in the hall if you can reach it put you can't on the A's are use the handle of a screwdriver or some other sort of plug to block the spark plug hole. Then you have someone crank the engine over and it should be blow blow blow blow. It should never ever suck your finger hard into the spark plug threads.
Since we can't trust the mechanic, or most of them, we really don't know what it was doing. But all that should have done was cause a miss and possibly a pop because the valve wasn't shutting quickly enough or firmly seating.
Once it's back together and after I fully inspected the roller rocker and the lifter, I would crank it over a few times while watching the valves move up and down. Then I would even start it and let it run for a few seconds to make sure all the valve train looks good.

Just a note as to how spoiled, lazy, and close minded the dealer techs are today... I know someone who took a very low mile Mint Condition Town Car to the dealer 4 a slight Miss and shake at idle. It wasn't enough to trigger a check engine light or a code and you could only feel it in drive or reverse. It kind of felt like a quarter to half of a miss and not a full Miss. When you canceled out cylinders they all made a noticeable difference that was very hard to diagnose.

Instead of doing a compression test, they did a cylinder balance test and came back with two of the cylinders having a lower than perfect result. They didn't fix it and didn't really have a good recommendation other than spending tons of money doing exploratory surgery. I don't know if the car was ever fix since I think you just sold it. When you have an issue that you can't boil down to lack of fuel or spark the first thing you do is a compression test and a vacuum gauge test. Yet these techs only know how to plug in a computer and read the screen.

Also had a Mazda dealership who claimed they had a professional Mazda Master Tech with 25 years experience check out and RX-7 second gen. It would start and run but soon as you drop into gear and die. The owner had put a new fuel pump in it with no change. It was towed to the dealership and they came back and told him they wanted $923 to replace the torque converter. This was around 2000-2001. My buddy told me this and I called the dealership and spoke to them. I asked if they had done a compression test and they said no. I asked them if they would please do one. They call back about an hour and a half later and said oh, the engine is shot it has no compression in 2 spark plug holes and has blown Apex seals. Duh. And they have someone with experience with Mazda rotary engines working there??

 

[1955moose]

Until a scanner company can come up with an app that can actually read compression, the shops are guessing at best. All their looking at is balance between cylinders. Sometimes it works, but in your buddy's case, not even close.

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[TobyU]

Until a scanner company can come up with an app that can actually read compression, the shops are guessing at best. All their looking at is balance between cylinders. Sometimes it works, but in your buddy's case, not even close.

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Yes, and most have lost the ability to perform basic thorough diagnostic procedures.

 

[1955moose]

See, consumer affairs and other agencies, have given the dealers and shops too much lattitude, and not make the shop responsible for a bad diagnostic. Why customer's put up with paying for a misdiagnosis and parts repair is beyond me. Can you imagine going to your doctor, he/she talks you into a surgery to fix your pain, then after the surgery, and healing time, they said sorry we didn't fix it. Please pay the hospital and me anyway. You'd be on the phone with your attorney before the first bandage change. Doctors have to be 95 percent right first time, why not mechanics. I've been lucky at shops that I ran, my techs we're good. But even as good as they were, I'd tell them, please get your diagnostic right the first time. I'd tell them, when I nailed down the coffin lid on a customer pay ticket, I don't want to pull the nails off, and reopen it! You lose all credibility with a customer when your wrong. It sometimes takes a little longer on diagnostic, but the end result is less comebacks.

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[Gregg Eshelman]

^ this. You can feed some rope into the cyl and gently turn engine by hand until piston pushes rope against valve to hold it closed. If it moves down at all you won't be able to push valve spring in enough to get keepers in as Moose said.
Definitely want to get those keepers out if you didn't find them laying right there.
You were lucky it didn't drop a valve. That would have been head off at minimum if not hole in piston.

My sister dropped a valve in #1 cylinder on the 302 in her 1977 Mustang. Destroyed the crank, block, #1 piston and rod, and that head. Snapped the head off the valve, drove it sideways into the head, bent the end of the rod sideways and put four evenly spaced lengthwise splits in the cylinder wall. She had a bit of a reputation for a lead foot, especially since we'd put a 1969 302 (not a 289!) 4bbl intake and carb on it. Dad asked her "Did you win?". It had a ticking noise so dad and I were wanting to dig into the engine that day, but she *had* to go to a friend's wedding. Dad told her to only go to the wedding then right back home. To her friend's house, to the wedding, here, there... Had to rebuild a 302 we'd been saving for another car.

 

[lbv150]

Here's a dealer horror story I'll throw in. A friend of mine took his '12 Expy to the dealer because it would not crank over. The dealer told him engine was seized and quoted to replace it. He had it towed to an independent shop who found bad wiring harness behind the engine.....