How to use a CAT scale for RV and truck towing?

[Fasttimes]

I've never used a CAT scale, but would like to get real world numbers for my Expy/trailer set up. What is the procedure? Cost? Do it once, or more than once with WDH loaded/unloaded? Any way to weigh hitch weight there?

 

[mwl001]

I've only checked empty vehicle or loaded with WDH engaged. Probably the most useful numbers are with WD engaged and unengaged to make sure that's working properly. If you want tongue weight you would just unhook your trailer and leave the tongue jack on it's own pad, the rear axle(s) of the trailer on another pad. You typically want your front axle on a pad, rear axle on a pad, and trailer axles on a 3rd pad (I believe there are 4).

SUVs are trickier to "balance" with weight distribution than pickups because they're closer to a 50/50 distribution, so you have less extra capacity on the rear axle and also on the front (since your goal is to shift more than on a pickup). In other words its tougher to return the vehicle to what feels like "normal" handling. But 700lbs or less tongue weight I don't think is difficult at all with these when using weight distribution.

$12 for first weigh, additional ones are only $2-3 if you "reweigh" in the same "session".

There's an app to make it easier, "Weigh My Truck" in iOS not sure what it would be in Google.

 

[MHay]

All good info from @mwl001. There are three pads. You’ll want to do three passes - one fully hooked up with the WDH, one with the WDH bars unhooked, and a third separated from the trailer. For the first two you’ll have the trailer axles on one pad and the TV axles on their own pads. For the third pass you’ll have the TV on its own pad, the trailer axles on a pad, and the trailer jack on the third pad.

 

[shane_th_ee]

You don’t need to weigh the trailer at all on the third pass. Just the truck. Here’s what you’ll do for math:
Trailer weight: gross weight of first weigh minus gross weight of just the truck (3rd weigh).
Tongue weight: sum the weights of the steering axle and the drive axle from the second weigh (WDH bars disconnected) and then subtract the weight of the truck alone (third weigh).
You can now divide the tongue weight by the trailer weight, multiply by 100 and have your tongue weight as a percentage of your trailer weight.

Next, you’ll want to find how much weight the trailer takes off the front axle without the WDH bars connected: subtract the 2nd weigh’s steer axle weight from the 3rd weigh’s steer axle weight.

Next, you’ll calculate how much weight your hitch is distributing back to the steer axle. Subtract the first weigh’s steer axle weight from the second weigh’s steer axle weight. This number should be between 1/3 and 1/4 of your tongue weight. This number should also be at least half of the weight the trailer takes off the steer axle (see number in the previous calculation).

 

[Fasttimes]

Was able to hit the scale this weekend on the way to a trip. I did 3 passes, TV - trailer WDH connected, TV/Trailer WDH arms unloaded, and TV on one scale and trailer with jack on middle scale alone and trailer axles on rear.

The numbers were very surprising and not in a good way. I will add this trip was my "MAX" trip when I take 3 teenage boys on Spring Break and just I. I may have this kind of load 2-3 times tops.

Here are the numbers.

2010 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer with HD tow. 10,000# Equalizer WDH, 2015 27RBDS Winnebago Ultralite

Truck sticker has payload of 1402, FGVWR of 3700 and RGVWR of 4250
Trailer has two 3500 axles, and an GVWR of 7700

First Pass, car loaded with passengers, one very small cooler. WDH engaged.

Steer Axle: 3020

Drive Axle: 4520

Trailer Axle: 6800

Gross Weight: 14340


Second Pass, car loaded with passengers, one very small cooler, WDH arms unloaded

Steer Axle: 2520

Drive Axle: 5220

Trailer Axle: 6600

Gross Weight: 14340



Third Pass, car loaded with passengers, one very small cooler. Car completely on pad 1 of scale, Trailer Jack on middle pad, Trailer axles on rear scalse

Steer Axle: 6640

Drive Axle: 1100

Trailer Axle: 6580

Gross Weight: 14340


So if I'm reading this correctly I'm running a hitch weight of 1100lbs. Which is way more than I thought. I was thinking in the 800lb range. I did just last week buy one of those Sherline Weight scales and weighed right as we left my driveway. It indicated 950lbs, so not sure who's the more accurate.

Payload I knew off the bat I was over, but the 270lbs over on the rear axles is quite concerning. I do know I should have added my last washer on the WDH hitch with the added weight of the passengers, so for sure I would have maybe off-set some of the rear weight towards the front axle which was probably running a bit light. But not sure if I can make up the 270lbs of over capacity on that rear axle with just doing that. I know I can move around some of the cargo in the forward hatch, but honestly I'm not really loaded up with much to begin with in that cargo hold. But I can move some stuff to the rear bathroom cabinets I imagine to help out.

So, this brings me to my current dilemma where to go from here. 80 % of trips it's just myself, wife and dog and probably just at or very slightly above that 1402 payload capacity. But I'm not liking being at the limits all the time, especially with an older truck running 145k miles. I was intending to upgrade to a like-new 4th gen Expy soon but even then I fear I'm still going to be right at the limits most the time. I guess I could look at the XLT Max models of the Expys to get max payload but it wouldn't be my choice if I have to, wife does like the bells and whistles of the upper trim models.

So I'm considering moving up to a Diesel F250/2500 class pickup but the idea of this isn't sitting well with the wife and do I want to spend that kind of money on a truck I use 6 times a year for towing? I'd probably then need to buy a 3rd vehicle for a daily driver since I don't necessarily need to drive a tank to work every day. Ok, I"m making my head hurt just thinking about this. ;-)

Open to all opinions and suggestions.

 

[JasonH]

You're at the limit for towing with this vehicle. Your tongue weight should be 768 - 1,1582, using 10 - 15% guidelines. Even 12.5% (968lbs) puts you slightly above the rating for the vehicle. Since this seems to be a trailer weight issue, your options are getting a lighter trailer, or getting a different tow vehicle. A properly configured half-ton truck should handle this load. I don't think you need the diesel over an Ecoboost unless you're doing gobs of miles, as the fuel, maintenance, and price premium won't be recovered in a short duration. The half-ton pickups are lighter and may have more payload depending on trim. Assuming the adjustments below don't bring you within the proper weight distribution, you'll have the same issues with a newer Expedition.

In the meantime, you can make things better by moving adjusting your ball height (within manufacturers specifications), moving your battery off the tongue, not using the front storage, and traveling with empty propane, assuming they're in the front as they normally are. Tongue weight varies by manufacturer, so there's no guarantee that any of these will address your issue. Your WDH is also not configured properly, as it should be able to push substantially more weight to the front axle. You didn't specify which type you're using, but since it takes washers to adjust the head angle, I would max out the number you use (in line manufacturers specifications). The brackets on the trailer frame should be the max distance specified in the manual from the ball receiver, and adjust the brackets so they push the arms higher. This should restore more weight to your front axle.

 

[Fasttimes]

Guess I figured with the Expy being on the F150 platform that the payload capacities would be near the same. Guess could look at that option.

The hitch is an Equalizer 10,000# set up. I think I have the max distance I could extend the arm brackets. Regarding adding the 8th washer, I did that not too long ago on a trip with just the wife, dog, and I and it became "loose" on the highway. I felt that it had lifted too much weight off the rear axle so I removed it. But this last trip was much more weight in passengers and definitely could have used that last washer.

 

[mwl001]

You want to max out your Equalizer so that once it's engaged (with the maximum angle on the bars) your trailer returns to level or slightly nose down. The "looseness" might be from having the trailer lower at the back than the front - this was our issue early on but having the proper drop shank fixed it - we needed quite a bit of drop for our trailer. Past that I think the best option is to lighten what you take - hopefully your water tank is empty and you may have to leave a lot of heavy stuff at home since it sounds like you need cargo for passengers.

 

[Fasttimes]

Looks like an F150 wont fit the bill from what I can see. Even though they have higher tow ratings, they're payload is pretty much the same as Expys. Got all excited when I saw some F150 people talking about a Heavy Duty Payload Package and 2200lb payloads, but turns out it's near impossible to get that short of fleet vehicles with no options.

 

[JasonH]

Looks like an F150 wont fit the bill from what I can see. Even though they have higher tow ratings, they're payload is pretty much the same as Expys. Got all excited when I saw some F150 people talking about a Heavy Duty Payload Package and 2200lb payloads, but turns out it's near impossible to get that short of fleet vehicles with no options.

You're correct. The F150 isn't substantially higher (excluding the HDPP unicorn). But if you can get nearer 1800lbs, you'll be closer to making weight. It's either that, an F250, or a lightweight trailer. There are some nicer trims that are near that. There are some photos on the F150 forums of payloads for different trim levels. As you're already aware, the higher the trim, the less payload.

 

[flying68]

Is there a way to shift cargo to the back of the travel trailer to lighten you tongue load? I suspect you probably have already done that. Even at the minimum 770 lbs of tongue weight you only have 630 lbs left of payload capacity which needs to include your hitch weight. I suspect you and the 3 boys average more than 157.5 pounds (not factoring in 50 - 100 lbs for the hitch). You didn't mention the Expy's GVWR, but it is probably a few hundred less than the sum of the axle weight ratings.

 

[Fasttimes]

Is there a way to shift cargo to the back of the travel trailer to lighten you tongue load? I suspect you probably have already done that. Even at the minimum 770 lbs of tongue weight you only have 630 lbs left of payload capacity which needs to include your hitch weight. I suspect you and the 3 boys average more than 157.5 pounds (not factoring in 50 - 100 lbs for the hitch). You didn't mention the Expy's GVWR, but it is probably a few hundred less than the sum of the axle weight ratings.

I'm thinking of giving a go at re-distributing as much as I can of the cargo in the front area on my next trip and swinging by the scale to see how much of a change there was. If I could get closer to 900lbs I would be a whole lot happier. This past week I have been looking hard at the F250 option, but it is very pricey. Would I like to have that class truck for when I tow, sure would. But I may tow my RV 12 times a year tops, and the scenario I set up with me and 3 teenagers/young men happens maybe twice a year if that. Having a truck like that as my daily driver like my Expy is now is not ideal. I'm thinking of doing the re-dist of weight, adding the sumo spring spacer, and upgrading the sway bar and see how it all behaves.

If those mitigation efforts work out well, I may ditch the Super Duty idea and go ahead with my originial plan of upgarding to a Gen 4 Platinum Expy 4x4. I'll gain a little bit of payload, and a little bit of rear axle capacity. But it'd be a whole lot better for me as a daily driver, probably fit the bill 90% of my RV trips, and be whole lot more easy on the mind when I do stress it out than my current 11 yo Expy.

I'm still a bit befuddled on how I got to 1100lb tongue weight to begin with. From the factory stated tongue weight is 760. I've got one group 27 battery and only one of two 30gal propane tanks about 70% full. Nothing crazy in the front compartment. Two power cables, two water hoses, some leveling plastic blocks, set of anderson levelers. A plastic rug, small tool kit. Guess it all adds up quite fast.

 

[JasonH]

I'm still a bit befuddled on how I got to 1100lb tongue weight to begin with. From the factory stated tongue weight is 760. I've got one group 27 battery and only one of two 30gal propane tanks about 70% full. Nothing crazy in the front compartment. Two power cables, two water hoses, some leveling plastic blocks, set of anderson levelers. A plastic rug, small tool kit. Guess it all adds up quite fast.

Unfortunately, I don't think the manufacturer's numbers are always accurate. If you really want to know the wet tongue weight without going to a truck scale, get a tongue weight scale and take everything out, then weigh the trailer.

 

[Fasttimes]

So I've been back and forth on what my next move was with the current loads not acceptable to me. Move up to Super Duty level, or make the Expy situation work out. This weekend I decided I'd put the trailer on a diet and see if I could made some headway, and I did! I was able to reduce the tongue weight by 200lbs. Here's the changes I made..

• Removed both 30lb propane tanks, swapped in one 20lb tank (3/4 full), and crafted a PVC pipe to support the other missing tanks spot. Got some more changes for this area in mind. I've ordered two 17lb fiberglass tanks that are half the weight of a steel tank. Problem is nobody can seem to get them in stock. So this 20lb tank set up will do for now.
• Re-adjusted my Equalizer, moving the arm brackets further away from the tongue to the recommended 32" distance, probably a move of about 1 3/4" but figure any bit more will assist in transferring more weight from the tongue to the trailer's axles.
• Went through all the cargo, tools, and accessories in the camper and played (do I really need this?). Removed several items, from a small vaccum that is never used to extra water hoses and a teak outdoor shower platform. Yeah, stuff I don't "need".
  
• Moved all heavy items from front storage to storage over axles or in rear of trailer. Between this reorganization and the propane changes I'm sure it was the bulk of the weight savings on the tongue. Only stuff I'm leaving in front storage is sewage hoses, outdoor carpet, small grill, and cellular antenna.

So after doing all this and hooking up immediately I could see a much better stance of the Expys rear end, it was very much improved. Now it was time to get on to a scale and get the results of my efforts.

Wife wasn't crazy about it but we packed pretty much like we were going away for a weekend from clothes in the closets to bikes on the rear mount, dog food, canned food, camp chairs, you name it. So on to the scale...



2010 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer with HD tow. 10,000# Equalizer WDH, 2015 27RBDS Winnebago Ultralite

Truck sticker has payload of 1402, FGVWR of 3700 and RGVWR of 4250
Trailer has two 3500 axles, and an GVWR of 7700

Trucked weighed with one axle each on pad with 2 adults, 1 large dog, one small dog, one small cooler:

Steer Axle: 3040
Drive Axle: 3380


First pass, 2 adults, 1 large dog, one small dog, one small cooler. WDH engaged.

Steer Axle: 3020

Drive Axle: 4100

Trailer Axle: 6740

Gross Weight: 13860


Second pass, 2 adults, 1 large dog, one small dog, one small cooler. WDH arms unloaded


Steer Axle: 2600

Drive Axle: 4700

Trailer Axle: 6560


Third pass, 2 adults, 1 large dog, one small dog, one small cooler. Truck completely on pad 1 of scale, Trailer Jack on middle pad, Trailer axles on rear scale


Steer Axle: 6420

Drive Axle: 900

Trailer Axle: 6540

Gross Weight: 13860



So, as I see it, I went from 1100lb tongue weight to 900lbs! WHD is moving about 180lbs of that 900lb off the tongue and onto the trailer's axles.


Now this wasn't an exact re-test because the payload was different this time compared when I was with 3 teenage boys. Large Rottie weighs 120 so he's close to the size of one of them, wife too, so figure compared to last time the payload was about 220lbs lighter in the truck. But this test is more real for me, because this is the setup I'll have 90% of the time.

So I think I can work with these numbers, especially getting into a Gen 4 Expy with a slightly higher payload and a gain of about 130lbs more capacity on RGVWR. I think I'll be within my needed margins most of the time and some. Maybe not when I take 3 teenage boys, but that one time a year I do that I think it'll be close enough.

I'm happy with the results, happy enough that I'll be shopping for a 4th Gen Expy in the near future. I'll tweak a little more weight off if I can, especially in the propane department and I think it'll work out.

 

[mwl001]

That has GOT to tow noticeably better than before. Did you happen to measure your fender heights with the new setup? Depending on how close your front fender is to unloaded you might be able to even transfer a little more hitch weight.

 

[Fasttimes]

That has GOT to tow noticeably better than before. Did you happen to measure your fender heights with the new setup? Depending on how close your front fender is to unloaded you might be able to even transfer a little more hitch weight.

I did measure, it was spot on for front axle loaded and unloaded. Rear axle squatted an inch. It certainly felt better driving, but I only got on the highway for about 15 min and during that time I never had a large rig blow past me or encounter any strong cross winds to see how it'd react. I'm light by 20lbs in the front compared to Expy alone with no trailer. I imagine that's good enough?

I'll be curious to see how it will behave when I have my next trip with my 3 growing nephews. After loaded up it's quite the pain to think you might need that last extra washer on the WDH added but you're all ready to go.

 

[mwl001]

I did measure, it was spot on for front axle loaded and unloaded. Rear axle squatted an inch. It certainly felt better driving, but I only got on the highway for about 15 min and during that time I never had a large rig blow past me or encounter any strong cross winds to see how it'd react. I'm light by 20lbs in the front compared to Expy alone with no trailer. I imagine that's good enough?

I'll be curious to see how it will behave when I have my next trip with my 3 growing nephews. After loaded up it's quite the pain to think you might need that last extra washer on the WDH added but you're all ready to go.

You should be able to bring your front axle back to where you started, I think mine are around 35" high, so yes you are fine being 20lbs light but if you add more weight (to the front axle) and aren't lowering the front ride height at all you may find it rides even better.

 

[JasonH]

I did measure, it was spot on for front axle loaded and unloaded. Rear axle squatted an inch. It certainly felt better driving, but I only got on the highway for about 15 min and during that time I never had a large rig blow past me or encounter any strong cross winds to see how it'd react. I'm light by 20lbs in the front compared to Expy alone with no trailer. I imagine that's good enough?

I'll be curious to see how it will behave when I have my next trip with my 3 growing nephews. After loaded up it's quite the pain to think you might need that last extra washer on the WDH added but you're all ready to go.

Congrats on getting everything adjusted properly. It must be a relief knowing that that you won't have to swap trailers or tow vehicles. Your tongue is actually a bit light, as the correct measurement is in your second pass. The total load on the vehicle suspension increased by 700 lbs over the truck weight only. Your truck is 6420 and your trailer is 7440, so you'll want at least 750 on the tongue. Some of the trailer weight is on the rear axle with the WDH is hooked up, so you can't go solely by the tongue weight in your third pass. Adding 50 - 150lbs to the tongue will improve stability.

You can probably move some items from the rear storage back to front storage, or just load extra items in the front storage when you're traveling. Load range "E" tires help with stability as well and also provide improved puncture resistance. You shouldn't need to make any adjustments when traveling with your nephews. Just put their belongings in the front storage of the trailer. This will allocate most of the additional weight to the trailer axle so you don't exceed payload in the tow rig. Safe travels!

 

[Fasttimes]

Congrats on getting everything adjusted properly. It must be a relief knowing that that you won't have to swap trailers or tow vehicles. Your tongue is actually a bit light, as the correct measurement is in your second pass. The total load on the vehicle suspension increased by 700 lbs over the truck weight only. Your truck is 6420 and your trailer is 7440, so you'll want at least 750 on the tongue. Some of the trailer weight is on the rear axle with the WDH is hooked up, so you can't go solely by the tongue weight in your third pass. Adding 50 - 150lbs to the tongue will improve stability.

You can probably move some items from the rear storage back to front storage, or just load extra items in the front storage when you're traveling. Load range "E" tires help with stability as well and also provide improved puncture resistance. You shouldn't need to make any adjustments when traveling with your nephews. Just put their belongings in the front storage of the trailer. This will allocate most of the additional weight to the trailer axle so you don't exceed payload in the tow rig. Safe travels!

Shoot, you are right. I forgot to take that into consideration, that the WDH was moving all that weight. But that 150lb added back to the tongue will put me back at my payload limit, and definitely way over when taking nephews the way I see it. It's back to, what is an acceptable number to be over payload? When it's the wife, dogs and I, we are right there, maybe 10lb-15lb over. But when you factor in these boys I'm betting I'm over by 200lb-300lbs.

 

[JasonH]

I think you're conflating payload and tongue weight limits. Your payload limit is on the yellow door sticker. Your tongue weight limit is around 900lbs. With a tongue weight of 800 lbs, you should still have around 600 to 700 lbs of payload remaining.