Another 5.4L tapping noise thread (sorry)

[steeltoe]

tldr: My Expedition clocked 113k miles and just started making the ticking noise. I know this comes up all the time, but does anyone who solved this problem have advice on what to inspect or replace first?





Bought my 2012 last November with 103k miles on it. Good service record, my mechanic gave the powertrain a thumbs up.

Got the oil changed at 110k, and then parked the car for two weeks. When I started it back up the engine was making the tapping noise. Assumed it was the lifters because it sat for a while. Took it to my mechanic who agreed it was probably lifters and said maybe whoever did the oil change didn't use high mileage oil. He replaced the oil for free but the noise is still there. At this point he said I was probably gonna need to take the engine apart to know for sure, otherwise I'd just be wasting money. He suggested I bring it to a friend of his with a bigger shop that works on Ford fleet trucks.

I've read that it could be:

• Use heavier oil.
• Use lighter oil.
• Use a premium oil filter
• Lifters / Cam followers - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOda8QPZ36s
• Loose spark plugs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sMSzsCYXgw
• Bad spark plugs / coil pack - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf8drMIYGq8
• Cam Phasers
• Timing chain

Since the noise started I've noticed a super inconsistent issue with power loss when accelerating, usually between 1st 2nd or 3rd gear. Usually doesn't happen on the highway or from a dead stop. More noticeable on back roads when I slow down for someone turning and then gas again. Also seeing 13-15mpg highway, compared to 16-18mpg before the noise. This makes me think spark plugs, but the fact it's so random makes me wonder if that's an unrelated airflow sensor issue or something.

Other info:

• Check engine light has never came on.
• Oil pressure is normal.
• Noisier on the passenger side.
• Increases speed when I rev the engine.
• Pretty loud when I start up. Gets quieter after driving, but not always.
• I live in Brooklyn, so it sees some city miles. But I mostly use it for road trips and off-roading on weekends.

Saw a lot of posts here & in F150 forums with people saying that they just ignore it. Some other posts saying the engine is gonna blow up. I kinda don't care if the truck sounds busted, but I definitely don't want to be running it into the ground. Especially if the engine is gonna throw a spark plug when I'm 15 miles from cell service.

Before I start throwing parts at it, what should I try to fix first? Most likely issue? Cheapest fix to try? Spark plugs & coils? Open up the engine to check the lifters and camshaft? Buy a BlueDriver and check for codes? Anyone have a link on how you fixed this in your truck?

 

[Brons2]

sounds like you've got a bad roller follower to me. I personally would not ignore it, if it spits out the follower you could drop a valve and that would mean new engine time. Watch some of FordTechMakuloco videos on YouTube, he is the most prolific 5.4 fixer on YouTube (edit: I see you have them posted). How good are your mechanical skills? You can diagnose it by taking off the valve cover if it's a roller follower. If you find one that the bearings have gone bad on the pivot wheel of the roller follower, it will have play in it and you will be able to physically move it by hand.

 

[JExpedition07]

Sounds like a timing job to me

 

[mr_dave]

It sounds very similar to mine when this happened: https://www.expeditionforum.com/threads/lets-play-guess-the-repair-bill-total.48997/

 

[steeltoe]

Sounds like a timing job to me

Do you have a video with what that sounds like? I can't really find one that sounds like my engine.

Timing chain would explain the inconsistent power loss though, right?

 

[steeltoe]

sounds like you've got a bad roller follower to me. I personally would not ignore it, if it spits out the follower you could drop a valve and that would mean new engine time. Watch some of FordTechMakuloco videos on YouTube, he is the most prolific 5.4 fixer on YouTube (edit: I see you have them posted). How good are your mechanical skills? You can diagnose it by taking off the valve cover if it's a roller follower. If you find one that the bearings have gone bad on the pivot wheel of the roller follower, it will have play in it and you will be able to physically move it by hand.

His videos are great but I don't know if I trust myself opening up the engine. I took it to this fleet mechanic to diagnose. He said it was probably roller followers too, but he hasn't opened it up yet.

I know the cost for replacing lifters and followers is mostly labor and I'm checking out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdAUeVRBNA8 and it seems easy, just tedious. I have a friend who works on his truck all the time and owes me a favor, but is this something we wanna try to fix ourselves?

Other question is even if there aren't timing chain issues, maybe I wanna get the timing set replaced anyway and while the cam is out, the lifters and followers can all just get replaced too? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2R3ZLQyu3U Like, if I'm at 114k miles and I wanna drive this thing another 90k+ I'm gonna have to do a timing job eventually.

 

[steeltoe]

It sounds very similar to mine when this happened: https://www.expeditionforum.com/threads/lets-play-guess-the-repair-bill-total.48997/

sounds like I'm in the same boat. I think I'm going to have to replace the timing chain and while that's out the lifters and roller followers too. Your repairs came to $6k, how much of that was from them dropping the valve? I'm guessing my repairs are gonna be in the $3500-5000 range.

I also have an extended warranty that covers major engine repairs, but idk if I'm going to be able to get them to pay for something "preventative" like this, who knows.

 

[tommyddsr]

If it is making noise like you describe this would be indicative of a problem and not preventative. Since it is under warranty just let the dealership look at it before you start wasting money without a proper diagnosis. If you start messing with it yourself you may void your warranty depending on the restrictions set forth, unless you are a certified mechanic. Just some friendly advice.

 

[scottc]

sounds like I'm in the same boat. I think I'm going to have to replace the timing chain and while that's out the lifters and roller followers too. Your repairs came to $6k, how much of that was from them dropping the valve? I'm guessing my repairs are gonna be in the $3500-5000 range.

I also have an extended warranty that covers major engine repairs, but idk if I'm going to be able to get them to pay for something "preventative" like this, who knows.

I just purchased a 2010 Exp. with 220k km (135k miles) that had a timing components R&R at 195k km (120k miles), but not roller followers, lash adjusters or the oil pump. I have been debating what to do with that combination, and finally booked an appointment for an oil change and interior mechanical oil pressure gauge installation, using a gallery plug in the RH (passenger) head, where starvation, if it happens, wouldl be greatest. Watch it carefully for for declining op, I guess. Might be worth knowing what you oil pressure is at hot idle in gear before planning ?
I envy your engine warranty. Just 113k miles, a good service record and a professional pre-purchase inspection. What is going on with these engines? mr_dave had around 45-50k miles on his, if I remember

 

[mr_dave]

sounds like I'm in the same boat. I think I'm going to have to replace the timing chain and while that's out the lifters and roller followers too. Your repairs came to $6k, how much of that was from them dropping the valve? I'm guessing my repairs are gonna be in the $3500-5000 range.

I also have an extended warranty that covers major engine repairs, but idk if I'm going to be able to get them to pay for something "preventative" like this, who knows.

Most of that was from retrieving the broken valve. It would have been closer to $1500 if they only did roller followers and cam.

If you have a warranty, I'd recommend bringing it to a dealership and seeing what they can find. If it's an aftermarket warranty like mine, they will look for every little thing they can, which is exactly what I wanted. The other option would be to drive it until it blows up and then get the warranty to cover a reman engine.

 

[mr_dave]

What is going on with these engines? mr_dave had around 45-50k miles on his, if I remember

That's correct. I bought it several months ago with around 46k and had the major work done at 49k. My impression is that Ford cheaped out on some very inexpensive parts, namely the timing chain tensioners, and when those seals go it causes oil starvation to the valvetrain components, especially on the passenger side. A little extra engineering of the oil flow paths or a little better tensioner design could have prevented countless issues.

 

[scottc]

That's correct. I bought it several months ago with around 46k and had the major work done at 49k. My impression is that Ford cheaped out on some very inexpensive parts, namely the timing chain tensioners, and when those seals go it causes oil starvation to the valvetrain components, especially on the passenger side. A little extra engineering of the oil flow paths or a little better tensioner design could have prevented countless issues.

FWIW, the shop tech doing the oil pressure gauge installation said he thinks the oil galleries were designed too small.Changing oil every 5000-6000km (3000m) is not enough, from "time to time" the engine has to be flushed with 1 qt. ATF added to the oil. I'm still reflecting on that.

 

[steeltoe]

Most of that was from retrieving the broken valve. It would have been closer to $1500 if they only did roller followers and cam.

If you have a warranty, I'd recommend bringing it to a dealership and seeing what they can find. If it's an aftermarket warranty like mine, they will look for every little thing they can, which is exactly what I wanted. The other option would be to drive it until it blows up and then get the warranty to cover a reman engine.

Ok, that's a relief. Searching here & F150 forums I'm seeing quotes anywhere from $800-1600 each to replace lifters & followers or the timing chain.

The warranty is an AUL aftermarket and I'm worried making a claim is gonna be like pulling teeth. But, my bank pushed it on me when I bought the car and paid for like 60% of it so maybe it's legit.

Thanks for your help with this. I know this issue comes up all the time but its tough finding "here's exactly my problem" and "here's exactly how I fixed it" posts.

 

[steeltoe]

Just got a call from the shop with the fleet mechanic and they said the noise is coming from the lower half of the engine on the passenger side as well as the top. They said I needed to replace my entire 114k mile engine, and said they could do it for $6800.

They didn't give me any more details over the phone, but that doesn't sound right to me. The noise sounds like its coming from "everywhere" under the hood. What would be broken on both the top and the bottom of the engine? The person on the phone couldn't even tell me if the mechanic opened up the valve cover.

Plus, how much should an engine replacement cost? I thought it was like $8-10k?

The noise started ~112500 in August and this is the third time it's been looked at in 1500mi over 3 months. How would an engine go from "fine" to "total loss" that fast? Absolute worst case, I figured I'd be replacing the lifters, rocker arms, timing chain, maybe the passenger side cam. Hopefully getting my warranty to pay for part of it.

Definitely going to get a 2nd opinion.

 

[scottc]

Just got a call from the shop with the fleet mechanic and they said the noise is coming from the lower half of the engine on the passenger side as well as the top. They said I needed to replace my entire 114k mile engine, and said they could do it for $6800.

They didn't give me any more details over the phone, but that doesn't sound right to me. The noise sounds like its coming from "everywhere" under the hood. What would be broken on both the top and the bottom of the engine? The person on the phone couldn't even tell me if the mechanic opened up the valve cover.

Plus, how much should an engine replacement cost? I thought it was like $8-10k?

The noise started ~112500 in August and this is the third time it's been looked at in 1500mi over 3 months. How would an engine go from "fine" to "total loss" that fast? Absolute worst case, I figured I'd be replacing the lifters, rocker arms, timing chain, maybe the passenger side cam. Hopefully getting my warranty to pay for part of it.

Definitely going to get a 2nd opinion.

Distressing to hear. IMHO, a agree a 2nd opinion is needed. Maybe time to contact your warranty reps too? Debris from a VVT component breakdown could block the oil pickup screen? Unfortunately, a number of other scenarios.

 

[steeltoe]

Distressing to hear. IMHO, a agree a 2nd opinion is needed. Maybe time to contact your warranty reps too? Debris from a VVT component breakdown could block the oil pickup screen? Unfortunately, a number of other scenarios.

Already called the warranty company and they said to send documents over and an adjuster would contact the shop. I asked about service records and they said 1 year & 10k miles into the warranty they probably wont need anything super detailed. I can prove oil changes but mechanics out here in BK don't keep records like Jiffy Lube. Crossing my fingers it won't be a total nightmare.

Fleet mechanic was way more helpful in person than the tech on the phone, but I kinda get the feeling his diagnosis was more "this **** happens" and that's it. He couldn't say for sure what was broken on the bottom of the engine but said he was sure something was moving around in there. Didn't charge me though, which is nice.

Still gonna get a 2nd or 3rd opinion though. Mentioned this all to my friend who works on his truck and he said he actually bought a new engine at one point from some people he trusts in Queens and had them install it, so maybe I do the work there.

 

[mr_dave]

Just got a call from the shop with the fleet mechanic and they said the noise is coming from the lower half of the engine on the passenger side as well as the top. They said I needed to replace my entire 114k mile engine, and said they could do it for $6800.

I'd be very surprised if the bottom end was knocking at 114k, unless the engine was abused and/or run very low on oil. Definitely get more opinions. That being said, the price is reasonable for a reman engine replacement, if it actually needs it. But again, I'm highly skeptical the bottom end is bad.

Also, you shouldn't need to worry about the warranty. Leave that up to the shop. If they want the business and want to get paid they will deal with the adjuster. All I did was print out a sheet of paper with the warranty info and dropped it off with my truck at the dealership, they took care of everything.

 

[steeltoe]

Got a 2nd quote at $4000 to replace everything in the left head. I think that included a timing set too, and he said I should upgrade the oil pump while we're in there. Also that a rebuild was probably a better idea because a used engine might have the same problem in 30k miles, but the rebuild with good maintenance should last a lot longer than that.

This lines up with what I've read from people brave enough to try this at home: Sometime around 100k its gonna start making noise, don't mess with lifters or the cam phaser, just open it up and replace everything in one shot cuz the parts are cheap and you'll be good for a while.

I'm stressed though because I called two ford dealerships and they both refused to even look at it. One of them said the noise was normal and insisted I didn't need service, and another mechanic said "yeah we know exactly what that is and we don't want the job"

its frustrating because the Windstar I bought from my parents in '02 ran for 185k miles, and a Taurus I picked up from a mechanic for $1200 racked up 250k+ miles before it couldn't pass emissions and I had to junk it. And I ran those cars into the ground. Figured I'm an adult now, and I'm gonna take care of this thing, and two oil changes later Ford mechanics are telling me to throw it in the garbage.

I'm 1 year into a loan on this and I might have up to $5000 in engine repair covered by the warranty. The noise started at 112500 this summer and I've only put 1500 miles on since, I can't imagine its a total loss. I was hoping to get 160k miles out of this thing at the bare minimum and pay for some off road upgrades. Now I'm afraid to even spend money on new tires for it.

Anyway, Would you rebuild the whole valve train or just replace the engine?

 

[mr_dave]

Anyway, Would you rebuild the whole valve train or just replace the engine?

Read your warranty's fine print. If it covers an engine replacement I'd just drive it until it dies, especially if you can't find anyone to preemptively fix it. No sense in having a warranty if you're going to pay out of pocket for major repairs.

 

[Vernon Burns]

I'm on my third 2007 Expedition EL. Current one has 183k miles. I think they made some minor engine changes in 2009 (not sure), so this may not apply. But if you want to try something cheap and easy, buy a bottle of Seafoam. Follow the directions, but pretty much put it in where you add oil (I think about half of the bottle), and run it for half an hour or so (idling or driving), then change the oil and filter. May not fix your problem, but it is one of the few "additives" I've used that actually work.