09 3v power loss "cured" with 5w40

[max78]

Well I found something curious. . . .

We have been fighting some inconsistent surging and power loss issues. We are sitting at 220k miles and I thought it was so many other things.

Backstory. Purchased at 160k miles, ran the recommended 20w for the first few oil changes. Did a Melling timing set (no phasers or solenoids) came with cast iron ratcheting tensioners. Did Melling high-flow oil pump while I was in there. Ran 20w afterwards. Ran fantastic till about 200k then power started dropping. Switched to 30w and power was better.. Seemed like a trans issue though. Changed all the fluid but no change. Messed around with things here and there till 220k. Mpg has been dropping and sits around 12mpg at best.

I dropped in some Lucas oil stabilizer thats as thick as honey and it ran night and day better. . . Thats not good.

Did an oil change with 5w40 and its like a whole new truck. . . Power is back and we are sitting at 16mpg. Transmission shifting wierdness has been "fixed" as well. I'm guessing the engine power consistency has helped in that regards but who knows.

I fear that we might have a worn engine and the thicker oil is helping keep the phasers working as intended due to the higher pressure. Next I'm going to test the thrust bearing. . .

Anything else i should look at while I'm under the truck?

 

[Vdubnick]

following

 

[Trainmaster]

Wouldn't anything making the phasers function erratically set a code?

You say the power loss is "inconsistant"? Probably not a bad idea to do a compression test to see the state of that motor. And maybe check the temperature of the catalytic converters to see if you have some type of clogging.

 

[vinbonifacio]

Following....I recently purchased a 2010 EL, with 204k miles and I have not had to change oil since it looks clear and new from the dipstick. I forgot to ask previous owner what type of oil it has been using. The truck runs strong and I am afraid now that if I change the oil to recommended viscosity 5w20 it will lose power???

 

[rollinstone]

FordTechMakuloco recommends 5W-30 for this gen. I’ve been running 5W-20 up to 77000 with no loss of power or mileage so far. Oil gets changed on schedule.

 

[max78]

Wouldn't anything making the phasers function erratically set a code?

You say the power loss is "inconsistant"? Probably not a bad idea to do a compression test to see the state of that motor. And maybe check the temperature of the catalytic converters to see if you have some type of clogging.

I would think that a phaser not working correctly would set a code, and looking at Forscan the error rate seemed to be within an acceptable rage according to FordTechMakuloco. But I have read several instances of people experiencing phaser issues zero fault codes so its not always foolproof (getting codes that is). My phasers are also original.

With the thinner oil under full throttle it would surge, almost felt like the transmission was slipping and catching. With the thinner oil it ran great when cold, but when it warmed up it turned into a dog and surge. Now with the 5w40 it has great power at all time.

I will add a compression test to the list and check the cats but considering I have fantastic power when cold I don't think its an exhaust restriction.

Following....I recently purchased a 2010 EL, with 204k miles and I have not had to change oil since it looks clear and new from the dipstick. I forgot to ask previous owner what type of oil it has been using. The truck runs strong and I am afraid now that if I change the oil to recommended viscosity 5w20 it will lose power???

Use the recommended oil. Thicker oil does not give you more power that's why I put "cured" in parenthesis because its not a fix.

I only did this because I have issues and I'm trying things to narrow it down to a specific issue. I put thicker oil in there to help me with diagnostics. My thought process is if the thicker oil allows for better operation then there could be an issue in the oiling system somewhere. I plan on checking the harmonic balancer for in and out play, that will tell me if I have an issue with the thrust washer. I will also check the oil pressure with a mechanical gauge at the sensor location because the dash gauge is actually just a switch, it doesn't tell you pressure.

FordTechMakuloco recommends 5W-30 for this gen. I’ve been running 5W-20 up to 77000 with no loss of power or mileage so far. Oil gets changed on schedule.

Ya, I have watched several of his videos. With 77k miles on your truck I would say its probably in much better condition than mine. We purchased this at 160K miles from a dealer that's known to sell government vehicles. We have zero maintenance history before our time and now we are sitting at 220K.


I will be sure to update the thread when I do more digging, but I haven't had the time lately.

 

[max78]

A Little bit of an update.

I replaced the trans pan gasket as well as the transmission bulkhead piece and that seemed to solve all of my leaking issues. . . That was causing my fluid level to go low in the trans and then it would start to shift slowly and jerky. After getting it buttoned all back up with the proper amount of fluid its much better. Its still down on power when warm so I will look more into it.

I did not check anything on the engine side of things yet as I didn't have time. I will still get to that but life has been busy.

 

[max78]

Another update.

So the low power issues are still there, and its now starting to get intermittent. Sometimes is super quick, sometimes it acts like its pulling 10k trailer. You can feel it gain power and lose power like something is cutting timing when accelerating. I verified that timing is good and there are not VCT errors so either the trans, or the fuel pump. With the pump being loud and seemingly unphappy its first on the list to be replaced. The fuel pump was very noisy a few weeks ago so I finally ordered a Motorcraft replacement a week and a half ago and Lakeland finally got around to shipping it. . . .

Hopfully I will be installing it this next weekend.

 

[Franklin Jones]

Look, it's a goofy question here, but just to make sure -

Did you check the simple stuff?
* Spark Plugs replaced?
* Air Filter clean?
* Throttle Body clean?
* Fuel Injectors clean?
* MAF sensor clean?

I've had lazy injectors (not in my ford) that ran fine at idle, but couldn't keep up when I went WOT. A couple bottles of injector cleaner helped, but didn't cure it until i replaced the injectors.

At 220k, you're definitely due for new plugs and probably due for new injectors too. Could be cheaper and easier than timing kits and transmissions.

 

[max78]

Look, it's a goofy question here, but just to make sure -

Did you check the simple stuff?
* Spark Plugs replaced?
* Air Filter clean?
* Throttle Body clean?
* Fuel Injectors clean?
* MAF sensor clean?

I've had lazy injectors (not in my ford) that ran fine at idle, but couldn't keep up when I went WOT. A couple bottles of injector cleaner helped, but didn't cure it until i replaced the injectors.

At 220k, you're definitely due for new plugs and probably due for new injectors too. Could be cheaper and easier than timing kits and transmissions.

Thank you for the suggestions. The answer is yes to most of those things.

New plugs were installed not long ago (10k miles)
Air filter gets changed every oil change (we live in the desert)
Cleaned the throttle body as well as MAF when I did plugs not too long ago.


I had my father-in-law run a fuel treatment on the vehicle at the BMW dealership he works at. This is not dumping a bottle into the gas tank, this connects up to the fuel rails to run a super concentrated cleaner you don't want to put through the rest of the system from what he says. But they could still need some cleaning probably.

Timing kit was already done, but the phasors and solenoids are original. Engine is whisper quiet and you can hear the injectors clicking away its so quiet. I did just find out I have a couple broken studs and a slight leak on one side of the exhaust manifold.


I replaced the noisy fuel pump assembly as well as fuel filter Sunday, Pump is significantly quieter and power seems to be back up to what it was at when I bought it. I dont trust that its fixed or anything because the truck has its days where it goes from great, to bad. It now has the power to peel out, which was never the case before so I'm hopeful. . Hopefully this is not a temporary thing and it continues to preform but only time will tell. I will keep this thread posted.

Edit:
Other things that were done in the last 20K miles
New motorcraft fuel filter
New Motorcraft upstream O2 sensors (the ones responsible for AFR),
new front and rear brake pads and pins (polished and greased)
parking brake adjusted (never used anyways)
All new rubber brake lines
New trans pan gasket and bulkhead to fix leak

 

[max78]

Update:

Truck died, dash lit up light a Christmas tree, No connection to anything.

Found an issue with the transmission plug. . . This might have been causing some issues. . . . All of the insulation is flaking away like someone sprayed it with something that cause the insulation to become brittle. I only ever use electrical cleaners on and around wires so I hope it wasn't that. . .

Now I need to find someone who has another one on hand.

 

[JimR_TN]

Interesting, could it be all the Arizona heat cycles and dry air destroying the plastic in the connector like that?

 

[max78]

Think it was something I sprayed on it to clean it. Maybe I grabbed the wrong can of cleaner when I did the bulkhead sleve, I don't know.

I tore out the harness and repaired it and now its back up and running. Liquid tape, heartshrink solder splices. Replaced a blown fuse and it works. Found that I have some pretty severe resistance on the front wheels when its in the air, need to look into that a little more.

 

[max78]

Just another update. I might have found my low power culprit. . . . . . .

For starters here is what I did so far.

I inspected the cats because I though maybe one was loose and plugging occasionally. I inspected it with the borescope and it looked not broken but not sure if its plugged. Went ahead and pulled it and it looked better and I washed them out anyways.

 

[max78]

After that I went to every wheel and rotated the tires, I found that the driver rear was dragging pretty good. great, that's why it started pulling to the left right?? I went ahead and pulled it apart and rebuilt it because I had purchased the stuff to do that a while ago. Turns out I only have front pistons so I had to polish the old cylinder. . . .







Doing all that work made absolutely no difference. . . .

I went ahead and ordered a USB cable for Forscan and decided to run the ABS module bleed command front the computer based Forscan so I could get a proper bleed on the whole system. I decided to do this because I was getting very little fluid out of the rear brake bleeder.

After running the bleed command the ABS would drain, and pump up 3 times. The brakes felt AMAZING! After that I went around and rebled all of the brakes. No change in the amount of fluid flow, and no air came out of the system. I then took it for a test drive and immediately hear brakes dragging BAD. . . . ok, so I drove around and pumped the brakes and it made it worse and they slowly released after a stop, but seemed like they were sticking pretty good. All the while I'm driving it feels like its got 10K trailer behind it. Clearly there is an issue with the brakes. Every time I make a left turn I can hear brakes dragging bad, turn right and it goes away completely. Sounds like I have a rotor not seated properly maybe?

I remember a while ago I had the rotors not fully seating due to the inner diameter on the rotor being to small causing the rotor to not sit fully against the wheel hub. I thought I had fixed this issue buy grinding the inner diameter but maybe not enough. I don't know. I do know that Discount recently fixed a TPMS, rotated my tires and its been bad ever since.

Going to pick up new rotors on the way home and hope that things get better because this is driving me nuts! I also hope that its NOT the ABS module itself because those are expensive!!!!

 

[JamaicaJoe]

Wrong rotors? Rubber brake lines collapsing inside acting as a check valve? I had that problem...

 

[Yupster Dog]

Doing all that work made absolutely no difference. . . .

You did not mention the parking brakes. Did you remove the rotors and check them?

 

[max78]

Wrong rotors? Rubber brake lines collapsing inside acting as a check valve? I had that problem...

Rotors fit, just one was slightly too tight on the hub, I fixed that by grinding it but it’s still tight. All rubber brake lines were replaced about 2 years ago with all motorcraft lines. Master cylinder is also new motorcraft. I found the culprit.

You did not mention the parking brakes. Did you remove the rotors and check them?

Parking brakes were replaced when I did the last brake job. Inspected them this go around and they are good and not dragging.



I found the culprit I’m pretty sure… the passenger side both front and rear were stiff and the slide pins did not slide easily at all. Adding to that one of the front calipers had a hole in the boot that allowed stuff in there causing it to stick.


Torn boot. It had some milky fluid in there along with some sludge.



Left set is drivers side, right is passenger side.



I used the white grease that came with the raybestos pads on the passenger, then ran out and used the purple prematex on the driver side. Taking them apart the ones with the white grease included with the brakes were stiff and extremely difficult to move, the side greased with the permatex purple was still butter smooth.




The inside of the driver side rear rotor was extremely worn out compared to the outside and was the worst one of all of them.



I really hate that I had to use parts store stuff, but a set of Duralast rotors and brake best semi-metallic pads made a world of difference! Gone is the semi-squishy pedal! It’s rock hard and stops a million times better! The Duralast rotor also fit the wheel hubs way better and tightened right down with no issue. My original rotors came with the truck and I had them turned and reused them. But because I needed them the day of this time it cost me $500…. If I had time to order them I would have went with a really nice kit for the same price but oh well.


Also power is better. Up top it’s great, but in the lower rpm’s it still seems lacking. It also has its moments of sluggishness. I’m data logging a bunch of parameters and will post back if I don’d anyone of interest.

Edit.

I deep cleaned the MAF as well as the throttle body. Installed a new set of motorcraft plugs (the old NGKs seemed OK and were only at .047). then I used Forscan to reset all adaptive tables. After all of that it now drives way better then it did. There seems to still be some pulsing and issues here and there but that could be from my trans. I did some datalogging so I will have to look into it.

 

[max78]

So the truck is broken again. . . .

After doing all of the above work we drove it on a 500 mile round trip. It drove great and averaged 18 mpg, braking was fantastic and no drama. Fast forward to 3 days ago while driving on the freeway the front passenger caliper locked up and started smoking, this is the one that was sticking and was rebuilt by me. The slide pins move very freely, and everything seems to be ok. Pistons push back as easily as the other side.

I would pump the brakes up and mash them hard, then go spin each wheel. The driver side spun very freely while the passenger side spun but had some drag. So I figured that maybe something else is wrong with the caliper so I said screw it and ordered 2 remmaned calipers (the red powerstops because reasons).

I installed the new calipers bled them properly and profusely. I pump them up as I did the others and mash it hard, go to spin the wheels and BOTH are LOCKED up. It will absolutely not turn what so ever. . .

They are installed correctly and the correct caliper is on the correct side (bleeders up) slide pins are greased and slide freely.

I cracked open the bleeder on the passenger side, it squirted fluid because it was under pressure and both, yes both calipers freed up. I did this a few times and it was the same every time. I then pumped them up again and unbolted the master cylinder from the booster and bam, with the bleeders closed the brakes freed up. I did this several times and it was the same every time.

I know that on the old-school master cylinder and brake boosters you needed to adjust the push rod, there are no adjustments that I can find on my vehicle or on the internet.

I took the master cylinder off and found that the pin on the booster that presses the master is loose, wobbles around, and moves in and out about 1/8" and binds when doing so. Reconnecting the master several times yielded different results each time, some drag, no drag, and locked up. So my assumption is that the pin is not supposed to move and that it's pushing the master cylinder occasionally causing the dragging? Does anyone know if its supposed to move in and out (loosly) about 1/8"? The super strange part is that it didn't do this with the old calipers, but that could be a coincidence that it failed during bleeding and was probably on the verge on failure and when the peddal was pressed all the way to the floor it was finished off. It could also be contributing to my low power if the brakes are dragging occasionally.

The master cylinder was replaced with a brand new Motorcaft unit less than a year ago so I wouldn't think that would be the issue.

Looking in the internet and the brake booster for the 09 is unique and discontinued literally everywhere. . . . I was hoping to buy one and compare but the only one I could find was a sketchy O'rielly unit that looks like garbage from the pictures and is special order.

 

[whtbronco]

This adventure has really been something. Is there any chance the rubber seal in the master cylinder is loose or dislodged? Something is not releasing as you noted.