4 months of ownership...'17 Expy

[jeff kushner]

Jeff i used to work for York Heating and Air Condition in York PA and then in Norman OK (once we moved our division headquarters out there) We would run failure testing and we would have multiple units in testing at the same time. 1,300 hours really wouldn't a very long time on an engine and you really can't equate hours to miles. I think the 150,000 miles actually refers to vehicles that they drove for 150,000 miles or that they put on a dyno and ran them continuously. Just my thoughts.

Small world Andy!
Did you move after the fire or before? Yes, I remember when the chiller plant burned up there years before Johnson bought York. I'm a Chief Estimator in the DC region so I buy a lot of York, Trane, Daiken equip..including the 4500 ton chillers for the NIH chiller plant which as you know, ONLY York can provide! You probably know Jim Carloni....as he's been my main York guy for the large equip for 20+ years? I've witnessed the factory testing before many times and do understand that several units are typically included for product line testing where as most of what I've witnessed is the particular unit for a particular project.

I know that Honda for instance, runs a bank of engines max rpm, another at 70% etc. Yamaha, back in 1981 ran the turbo at 22PSI although the public version only produced 8-11 during it's various renditions. My question was really only that I would have rather seen a chart or wish they would have worded it more accurately to reflect what they actually did because that paragraph just struck me as ambiguous.....that's all.


Powerbtr/07.....I don't think anyone is "wrong" in this....yes, the timing is set by the ecu and any sensed detonation will result in it being retarded to preserve the engine. Hell, that old turbo I referred to above does that and it was built 35 years ago. It has 2 types of knock sensors and either will retard the timing. Just good sense.

Yes, my lifetime average over the past 10,300 miles is still 17.4 and the delta here for regular to premium is exactly 75 cents too(always driven in 4auto).

My TC does not reengage though...nor does my light flash. It remains lit when I turn it off and stays off. I actually checked it by accident over the weekend by powersliding a turn at 50mph going to a St Pat party on Sat. with my sweetheart. Purely by accident which took a bit of calming her down...thankfully those years of road-racing bikes let me deal w/o panic.....but trust me...it WAS OFF<LOL>!!

No worries Loki...no one here gets bent about stuff so don't ever worry about being redundant!
OK, time to get my butt to work!

jeff

 

[ExpeditionAndy]

Small world Andy!
Did you move after the fire or before? Yes, I remember when the chiller plant burned up there years before Johnson bought York. I'm a Chief Estimator in the DC region so I buy a lot of York, Trane, Daiken equip..including the 4500 ton chillers for the NIH chiller plant which as you know, ONLY York can provide! You probably know Jim Carloni....as he's been my main York guy for the large equip for 20+ years? I've witnessed the factory testing before many times and do understand that several units are typically included for product line testing where as most of what I've witnessed is the particular unit for a particular project.

I know that Honda for instance, runs a bank of engines max rpm, another at 70% etc. Yamaha, back in 1981 ran the turbo at 22PSI although the public version only produced 8-11 during it's various renditions. My question was really only that I would have rather seen a chart or wish they would have worded it more accurately to reflect what they actually did because that paragraph just struck me as ambiguous.....that's all.
jeff

I used to live in Mechanicsburg, PA I was in the HVAC field for 35 years and with York from February 1994 until September of 2006. We moved to Oklahoma in August of 1998. The name sounds very familiar but I've been gone a long time now. My background is in sales and marketing. York initially brought me on to work with a developer to create proprietary Rooftop A/C units. Then I moved into technical training and eventually into marketing. After JCI bought York and started working on the Unitary Products group I lost my job and moved to Fort Wayne to be the director of marketing for WaterFurnace International. After that ended I became a consultant and now I'm semi-retired (you could say. ) Now I teach business and management at Harrison College. I mainly teach online class now.

That's what happens when you have a non-tech writer writing for a tech audience and he is trying to simplify things.

 

[ManUpOrShutUp]

Andy,

I would never want to know what they sold it for but everyone's different. Hope you hear the real number.

Yeah, I don't know that I would want to know how much profit the dealer made off of me. My mom traded in her '13 Nissan Frontier a couple years ago and got $20K for it. Also, in order to get that $20k trade-in value, she had to buy an aftermarket warranty for $3k and they shafted her on one of the rebates she was supposed to get. Then they sold her truck for $26k to boot.

On the flip side, I actually know what the dealer paid for my '11 EL as I had been looking at that exact truck on Craigslist before the owner decided to trade it in. I realized it was the same truck when I typed the VIN into my phone and it auto-completed.

 

[jeff kushner]

[QUOTE="ManUpOrShutUp, post: 257369,

On the flip side, I actually know what the dealer paid for my '11 EL as I had been looking at that exact truck on Craigslist before the owner decided to trade it in. I realized it was the same truck when I typed the VIN into my phone and it auto-completed. [/QUOTE]

Holy Crap! What's the chances of THAT happening! Amazing stuff happens if we are paying attention!

jeff

 

[jeff kushner]

[QUOTE="ExpeditionAndy,to live in Mechanicsburg, PA I was in the HVAC field for 35 years and with York from February 1994 until September of 2006. We moved to Oklahoma in August of 1998. The name sounds very familiar but I've been gone a long time now. My background is in sales and marketing. York initially brought me on to work with a developer to create proprietary Rooftop A/C units. [/QUOTE]

I know all about teaching the supposed "smart engineers". I've been doing it for years as a contractor. Most of the time the guys are receptive if you treat them with respect...but there have been a few cases where I've tried to bail an engineer out of his mistake & he leaps to his high horse acting like he's all superior.....then I'll teach him the other side of contracting with a very fat change order for his error.

When the industry tanked on '09, I left the contracting side and opened a division for a multi-national Consulting & engineering firm in Alexandria Va for five years. We were plenty busy but as a consultant, you are pricing projects for people who are ignorant of real Mech costs and ungrateful for your work. For instance, I assembled a cost model for the HVAC and Plumbing for the new African American Museum in DC 4 yrs before it was built, prior to even schematic dwgs, from just a 2 page engineer's narrative...came out to 27 mil for the HVAC and 6 for the plmg. The woman in charge of the meeting(30 people-all suits) for the cost and design team actually told me that I didn't have a clue what it was going to cost so early in the process and I must be wrong. She was one of the head people for the Smithsonian so needless to say, I was very embarrassed...but karma has a way of evening the playing field and 3 years later after the various renditions of the drawings and docs had been developed, when the contractors bids came in, I made sure I was at the meeting.....that ***** wouldn't even look at me as the various trade costs were announced....yeah, 27.2mil for the HVAC and 5.8 for the plmg. I leaned over and reminded our Arch team members and THEY said "say something" so during the meeting, I stood up and reminded her directly of our earlier encounter.....SHE pretended not to remember but everyone else there did. It was hilarious as they all clapped while she buried her head..... too!...that's when I decided that I would be leaving the consulting world.


..but I missed the contracting side so I resigned and intentionally took 6 months off from work while I restored a couple of bikes, took my sweetheart on vacation and generally screwed off for 6 months....I highly recommend that everyone do that at some point during their career too! Then I came back into the contracting side of the business.

I love what I do....and that's what's really important....that we get paid for something that we enjoy doing!

jeff

 

[NevadaGeo]

[QUOTE="ExpeditionAndy,to live in Mechanicsburg, PA I was in the HVAC field for 35 years and with York from February 1994 until September of 2006. We moved to Oklahoma in August of 1998. The name sounds very familiar but I've been gone a long time now. My background is in sales and marketing. York initially brought me on to work with a developer to create proprietary Rooftop A/C units.

I know all about teaching the supposed "smart engineers". I've been doing it for years as a contractor. Most of the time the guys are receptive if you treat them with respect...but there have been a few cases where I've tried to bail an engineer out of his mistake & he leaps to his high horse acting like he's all superior.....then I'll teach him the other side of contracting with a very fat change order for his error.

When the industry tanked on '09, I left the contracting side and opened a division for a multi-national Consulting & engineering firm in Alexandria Va for five years. We were plenty busy but as a consultant, you are pricing projects for people who are ignorant of real Mech costs and ungrateful for your work. For instance, I assembled a cost model for the HVAC and Plumbing for the new African American Museum in DC 4 yrs before it was built, prior to even schematic dwgs, from just a 2 page engineer's narrative...came out to 27 mil for the HVAC and 6 for the plmg. The woman in charge of the meeting(30 people-all suits) for the cost and design team actually told me that I didn't have a clue what it was going to cost so early in the process and I must be wrong. She was one of the head people for the Smithsonian so needless to say, I was very embarrassed...but karma has a way of evening the playing field and 3 years later after the various renditions of the drawings and docs had been developed, when the contractors bids came in, I made sure I was at the meeting.....that ***** wouldn't even look at me as the various trade costs were announced....yeah, 27.2mil for the HVAC and 5.8 for the plmg. I leaned over and reminded our Arch team members and THEY said "say something" so during the meeting, I stood up and reminded her directly of our earlier encounter.....SHE pretended not to remember but everyone else there did. It was hilarious as they all clapped while she buried her head..... too!...that's when I decided that I would be leaving the consulting world.


..but I missed the contracting side so I resigned and intentionally took 6 months off from work while I restored a couple of bikes, took my sweetheart on vacation and generally screwed off for 6 months....I highly recommend that everyone do that at some point during their career too! Then I came back into the contracting side of the business.

I love what I do....and that's what's really important....that we get paid for something that we enjoy doing!

jeff[/QUOTE]
This is the world we live in. Good on you for slamming the b*&^h and shoving reality down her throat. My career has been exploration for precious metals which I love doing. No mules but an F-150, good boots and rock hammer. We do most of our work with contractor drillers who drill holes with big drill rigs where we think mineralization should be. I love this work and have been successful in my career!!

I have been with big companies, small companies and as consultant. My last job was strictly managing a budget and very little geology, so I too left to take some time off. I have a nice contract coming up, but in the meantime, I bought a nice Expedition Limited and my wife and I are going on a SW USA road trip in about a week. Semi-retirement is good. I am 61 and have 5 more years before I can get my government benefits (probably 50% of what I paid into it...) but contract work is good for me at my career level. I have grown too cynical to work for a company ever again!!

 

[cekkk]

There just seems to be something "wrong" with that....but it will motivate me to buy that extended warranty that I've been pushing off. I did a bunch of research when I first bought my truck so at least that part of the decision is done.


jeff

I've had several Expeditions since my first, a '97. I've had just one significant expense, $400+, and that wouldn't have been covered by any warranty. Dealers I dealt with wanted nearly $3k for extended warranties that had high deductibles. Nonsense IMHO. My credit union offered a hundred K no deductible one for a a little over$1300 on our 2013 King Ranch, but I didn't buy it, either. Counting the other cars we did not buy extended warranties for I could probably buy a cheap new car for the money I saved. If I really felt I was going to spend thousands of dollars in repairs during the life of the car, I sincerely doubt that I would purchase it. Just my outlook.

 

[jeff kushner]

I've had several Expeditions since my first, a '97. I've had just one significant expense, $400+, and that wouldn't have been covered by any warranty. Dealers I dealt with wanted nearly $3k for extended warranties that had high deductibles. .

I sure would NOT argue that point. I did buy an extended warranty for my SLK that covered everything for 125,000....I paid $1,600 bucks but $100 discount for paying it all at once.....so OF COURSE NOTHING ever broke! I know have 191K miles and STILL nothing has ever broken.....so playing the odds sure seems like a pretty safe bet. I am thinking of getting one but the one I'm thinking of buying is the least expensive at $1,100 for 5yrs & 125,000 miles ...and this is the important part....the coverage begin AFTER the factory warranty ends so it won't take effect until 36,001 for everything outside the powertrain and 60,001 for the powertrain. In effect, my engine/tranny would be covered for a total of 185,000 miles!

1100 bucks seems cheap for 185K miles of peace of mind....but again, I wouldn't argue with you based on my only experience with extended warranties....it was a waste of 1500 bucks.

jeff

 

[NevadaGeo]

Agreed. I purchased an extended warranty for my 2012 F-150 and never used it. When researching the 2017 Expedition, I noticed Consumer Reports rated the Expedition very highly, so I figured it would be a waste of money. The way I see it, 2017 is at the peak of production quality before the 2018 redesign. It has a great reputation so I agree the extended warranty is just another way the dealership is going to make a buck off you.

 

[ExpeditionAndy]

I purchased the 8 year 100,000 mile warranty because I intend to keep this Expedition at least 10 years. I doubt that I'll hit the 100,000 mile mark by then because I don't drive that many miles anymore but I might. If just one running board motor goes out out of warranty that a $2600 repair bill and running board motors have not been the most reliable. That'll almost cover the cost of the warranty. I bought the Ford with the disappearing deductible because I only take my vehicles back to the dealership. As long as I go to my dealer there is no deductible. If we happen to be on a trip and had a warranty repair, we would only pay $100 deductible (this is after the regular 36,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty and the 50,000 mile drive train warranty have expired.

The good thing is I can cancel it any time and get a refund for the unused portion. If I sell the truck, I get a refund for the unused portion.

 

[NevadaGeo]

I purchased the 8 year 100,000 mile warranty because I intend to keep this Expedition at least 10 years. I doubt that I'll hit the 100,000 mile mark by then because I don't drive that many miles anymore but I might. If just one running board motor goes out out of warranty that a $2600 repair bill and running board motors have not been the most reliable. That'll almost cover the cost of the warranty. I bought the Ford with the disappearing deductible because I only take my vehicles back to the dealership. As long as I go to my dealer there is no deductible. If we happen to be on a trip and had a warranty repair, we would only pay $100 deductible (this is after the regular 36,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty and the 50,000 mile drive train warranty have expired.

The good thing is I can cancel it any time and get a refund for the unused portion. If I sell the truck, I get a refund for the unused portion.[/QUOTE]
That is what I did with the extended warranty on the F-150. Got back about $350 and traded it in at 75,000 miles. So it does work out if you go this route.

 

[ManUpOrShutUp]

[QUOTE="ManUpOrShutUp, post: 257369,

On the flip side, I actually know what the dealer paid for my '11 EL as I had been looking at that exact truck on Craigslist before the owner decided to trade it in. I realized it was the same truck when I typed the VIN into my phone and it auto-completed.

Holy Crap! What's the chances of THAT happening! Amazing stuff happens if we are paying attention!

jeff[/QUOTE]

Yeah it was pretty crazy. I found it on Craigslist posted by a used car salesman who had posted it on behalf of a friend (he was doing it for a cut of the profits). The ask was way too high though and he wasn't moving much after several emails. About 2 weeks later I found this truck at a new car dealer for $4k less than the truck in the Craigslist ad. I go to type the number in my phone to run the Carfax etc and it auto-completes. I'm thinking "wtf? noooo ..." Then I checked my email from the Craigslist guy and the VIN is the same. Apparently, the owner had been driving by the dealership, saw a new Cherokee and decided to trade it on the spot. The used car salesman was pissed that he traded it.

 

[powerboatr]

Hey everyone, I will always admit when i am wrong or at least mis type
the taking off for a 6 months or so to spend time with the light of my life was started oct 2006, so far i have not felt the need to return to the rat race

i did MIS TYPE in my remarks about traction control, roll control and stability control.
the button will dis-engage the entire system at speeds below 35 when selected or when in 4LO. 4H it will still engage, and can control up to 3 wheels, as in braking to control spin, at or below 35 mph
the TRACTION control can remain "toned" down but not off above 35 mph.
the computer will raise the threshold of involvement, as in if your above 35mph it will take more loss of traction to have the computer engage braking on a particular set of wheels or wheel to reduce loss of traction, unless in 4LO.
the system is intensively complicated as you can imagine
but i did mis type ans stated all systems re-engage above 35 mph, this was incorrect
clear as mud right

in 4AUTO, the system behaves as 2H, except it will also engage front drive and is torque based to engage, as in mechanically, not through a set of viscous clutches or magnets.
in 4 auto the traction, roll and stability is at its most ALERT and will do more to stop loss of traction, slide (yaw) and roll over.
I had a long talk with a trw drive-train engineer

 

[NevadaGeo]

In my 2017 Owners Manual, pgs. 178-179, there is a table that describes what actions to take to control Traction Control. On pg. 179 it shows that at above 35 mph, if you press and hold the TC button for longer that 5 seconds, the system is disabled. However, there is reference under the table that it may become enabled under "higher entry thresholds", so even in the OM, it is clear a mud.

Mud is good. Keeps us happy as hogs on a hot day.

Overall, this is a great and well-engineered system that is very valuable for what it was designed for.

 

[jeff kushner]

It's all good Powerboater.....no one here get's "offended" but it's cool that you did come back to try to clarify....as Andy calls it...the mud of the OM.

My "experiment" is really complete anyway. I had been told that there is a 1mpg savings by turning off the TC and since it's 6am here, making sense of the engagement/disengagement subroutine is just a bit too heavy to read this early...so in my mind, if I press the button and the warning lights comes on and stays on, it's off<LOL>....whether it actually is not is a different matter....but anyway.....I am seeing a TINY MPG savings but in all honesty, I believe that it's just the difference in my driving.

As human beings, I believe it's nearly impossible for us to remain totally and 100% objective when doing any type of mpg experiment, we will always tend to tailor our driving even the smallest amount to reach the desired or suggested outcome. It doesn't necessarily happen at first but here I'm 4 days into the experiment and definitely noticed that I'm driving biased towards better mileage which is not how I normally drive.......gently getting into high gear asap, not ever accelerating quickly and that just isn't "normal driving" for me....so I'm going to call it today and say that I did not notice any appreciable difference between TC on or off.

jeff

 

[NevadaGeo]

It's all good Powerboater.....no one here get's "offended" but it's cool that you did come back to try to clarify....as Andy calls it...the mud of the OM.

My "experiment" is really complete anyway. I had been told that there is a 1mpg savings by turning off the TC and since it's 6am here, making sense of the engagement/disengagement subroutine is just a bit too heavy to read this early...so in my mind, if I press the button and the warning lights comes on and stays on, it's off<LOL>....whether it actually is not is a different matter....but anyway.....I am seeing a TINY MPG savings but in all honesty, I believe that it's just the difference in my driving.

As human beings, I believe it's nearly impossible for us to remain totally and 100% objective when doing any type of mpg experiment, we will always tend to tailor our driving even the smallest amount to reach the desired or suggested outcome. It doesn't necessarily happen at first but here I'm 4 days into the experiment and definitely noticed that I'm driving biased towards better mileage which is not how I normally drive.......gently getting into high gear asap, not ever accelerating quickly and that just isn't "normal driving" for me....so I'm going to call it today and say that I did not notice any appreciable difference between TC on or off.

jeff

The TC shouldn't activate the breaking routine unless there is slippage realized by the computer in one of the wheels. Driving on a paved road with no ice or water should be ideal conditions IMHO. So how would the TC activate enough to make a difference in MPG in ideal conditions anyway??

Yes it is good to kick things around. Good to have free thought on any forum. This is what makes America great!!

 

[powerboatr]

ah the HUMAN interface, heheheeee
i find if i have the instant mpg scale on the display, i tend to do more conservative effort with the right foot, almost to an obsession, so i hide it and use the tach display.
and when i do watch the mpg display i tend to gain a few tenths, and find my self coasting and anticipating stops or slow downs.

i agree the system is cool, it had in my 150 stopped a few loss of traction and control events on slick roads.

 

[ExpeditionAndy]

I'm just going to drive it like I stole it and have fun!

 

[NevadaGeo]

I'm just going to drive it like I stole it and have fun!

Great minds think alike! It is fun to drive! Looking forward to our road trip in the SW US next week! Have under 2000 miles on mine, thinking about its first oil change before we go.

 

[ExpeditionAndy]

We are taking our first trip in June. We are driving out to PA to visit our parents and friends. That'll put 1200-1500 miles on it. I just turned 350 miles today. I've had it a little over a month now. I am really enjoying the acceleration off the entrance ramps onto the highway.