Disappointing 4WD performance on snow.

[JExpedition07]

Don't get me wrong, 4A is pretty awesome - I leave it on all the time in winter. Electronics do pretty good job in 99% of the time. I also have HD Tow package which includes eLSD and I can say sometimes it kicks in automatically before engages traction control through the ABS/brakes, without need me to press a button to lock rear diff. All of that + Michelin Latitude X-Ice makes my set up almost bulletproof.
If I had to choose between 4H and 4A, I would take 4A any day. If I really need something extreme, I can go to 4L which locks transfer case in 50/50 mode without traction control, plus manually lock rear diff.
Some MT/AT tires could possible give you better traction in fresh snow, but nothing beats proper winter tires going downhill from a local ski mountain on curvy icy road...

The problem isnt that 4A is bad. The problem is that Ford sort of went backwards on the 4WD. All the older Expeditions have 2H,4A,4H,4L modes standard on all 4WD models. Why Ford removed 4 Low as a standard item for a 4x4 equipped truck is beyond me...kind of annoying you now have to look far and wide for what should be an easy to find option.

 

[LokiWolf]

Does anyone know if the standard XLT without any special packages has an electronic (not mechanical) LSD?

I wonder if lack of an LSD of any kind is contributing to the issue. The electronic LSD brakes the wheel with low traction to allow the other wheel to get some power, and is basically free for the manufacturer to add (they already have wheelspin sensors), so I would be surprised if there is no e-LSD, but not sure if anyone knows for sure.

You are slightly misinformed across the Board.

The ELSD is not a brake the wheel LSD, while the Traction control does do that the ELSD in these Trucks uses clutches that are electronically actuated in the Rear Diff.

It is in most cases FAR better than a mechanical LSD, because it activates and turns off MUCH quicker.

It also has a lock mode, now not a true locker like the F150's, it simulates a locker by using the clutches.

I know the Heavy Tow equipped Expeditions have the ELSD, I am not sure about the Non-Heavy Tow.

 

[LokiWolf]

The problem isnt that 4A is bad. The problem is that Ford sort of went backwards on the 4WD. All the older Expeditions have 2H,4A,4H,4L modes standard on all 4WD models. Why Ford removed 4 Low as a standard item for a 4x4 equipped truck is beyond me...kind of annoying you now have to look far and wide for what should be an easy to find option.

Pretty easy. Heavy Tow or FX4 has it, others don't. For most Soccer Mom's 4L is just not needed and will never be used. At least we can still get it!

 

[Jeka]

The problem isnt that 4A is bad. The problem is that Ford sort of went backwards on the 4WD. All the older Expeditions have 2H,4A,4H,4L modes standard on all 4WD models. Why Ford removed 4 Low as a standard item for a 4x4 equipped truck is beyond me...kind of annoying you now have to look far and wide for what should be an easy to find option.

Maybe Ford got sick for all the warranty claims from soccer moms who drove their expeditions in 4H all the time?
Someone here mentioned that you still can get 4H through the drive modes, I believe the front axel clutch is locked in mud/ruts and sand modes. But not sure.

 

[Meeker]

Not sure which stock tires we're talking about... Hanooks or Michelins, but I'd like to add that the stock Michelin Primacy XC's are total garbage in Snow. I live on the benches of the Wasatch Front range at 5000' elevation. We drive up the canyon to ski and visit family in the canyon many times a week through the winter. I have driven many cars and SUV's and this is the worst tire I've personally owned in snow bar none.

All though an All Season tire, it's noted to have "All Terrain Traction" on Michelin's site. We have yet to swap them out, but we no longer drive it in snow. We use our Honda CR-V with Toyo Open Country AT III's instead. The Expedition made one initial run up the canyon in snow for a ski day and it was so bad, my wife could not make a bypass road and had to wait for the main road to open back up. Never again will she drive it in poor conditions unless new true A/T rubber is put on.

Everyone's idea of what a bad snow situation looks like is different and I admit that for us, a bad day is likely heavier than many other's view based on our location. Therefore I would never expect an All Season tire to perform as well as what we need, but I definitely expected more than what these Michelins can give. Sucks to replace rubber with plenty of tread life left so we let it sit on bad days and drive our CR-V for now. True A/T's always go on every vehicle of ours when we do replace tires.

My 2018 XLT came with the 18" Primacy tires and I second everything you say about them. I'm in Canada and that first winter was a bit dicey. Much worse than the Continentals that came with my 2006 Expy. I went to Michelin AT/2 LT tires and am very happy. Not full winter tires but good enough that I don't feel any desire to swap tires twice a year.

 

[shane_th_ee]

You are slightly misinformed across the Board.

The ELSD is not a brake the wheel LSD, while the Traction control does do that the ELSD in these Trucks uses clutches that are electronically actuated in the Rear Diff.

It is in most cases FAR better than a mechanical LSD, because it activates and turns off MUCH quicker.

It also has a lock mode, now not a true locker like the F150's, it simulates a locker by using the clutches.

I know the Heavy Tow equipped Expeditions have the ELSD, I am not sure about the Non-Heavy Tow.

The confusion is that some competitors (I’m looking at you, Armada) refer to traction control/ABS pseudo-LSDs as “electronic limited slip differentials”. Whereas Ford’s 3.73 eLSD is a completely different animal.

 

[LokiWolf]

The confusion is that some competitors (I’m looking at you, Armada) refer to traction control/ABS pseudo-LSDs as “electronic limited slip differentials”. Whereas Ford’s 3.73 eLSD is a completely different animal.

Yep, It is a legit LSD, just Electronically controlled.


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[vincentrose]

I know that for a few years, Not all 4 drive modes were available. Mine is a 2014, and it has 4 modes 2H, 4A,4H,4L. 4A Works pretty good in the mud, Havent had a chance to try it in the snow yet, since it hasnt snowed here in SC yet. But you should NEVER use 4H on dry pavement, but 4A is ok on any surface

 

[Calidad]

The problem isnt that 4A is bad. The problem is that Ford sort of went backwards on the 4WD. All the older Expeditions have 2H,4A,4H,4L modes standard on all 4WD models. Why Ford removed 4 Low as a standard item for a 4x4 equipped truck is beyond me...kind of annoying you now have to look far and wide for what should be an easy to find option.

Cost and moving to compete with AWD vehicles where 4low isn’t a concern. They simply dropped the transfer case and lowered cost.

 

[JExpedition07]

Pretty easy. Heavy Tow or FX4 has it, others don't. For most Soccer Mom's 4L is just not needed and will never be used. At least we can still get it!

True but think it should be included with 4WD. You get 4 low on the F-150 as long as you check 4WD on the build sheet. Very useful for hauling boats out etc, not always something HD tow is needed for. I get Fords point because it probably saves costs on the transfer case but they kinda made it more difficult than it has to be.

 

[wakeboarder]

I know the Heavy Tow equipped Expeditions have the ELSD, I am not sure about the Non-Heavy Tow.

I think this was true until the 2021 model year. I seem to remember they separated the ELSD from the HD tow.

 

[Expedition Dave]

Welcome to the gentrification of almost all mainstream trucks (especially SUVs). The tires that are selected for your milquetoast 4x4 vehicle when new?
I can't--but feel like I can--almost guarantee when chosen by the parent company, purchased and installed bulk at the factory--overall traction was their least concern. Bulk $$$ cost & CAFE are the first to duke it out for the top dog, with initial road noise (first 5-10K of life) probably tailing last place right back there with traction. YMMV.

And as far as "dude, where'd my 4low T-case go?" Yeah, same with the Tahoes/'Burbans. The reality is, most people who have 4low, NEVER EVER EVEN EVER ENGAGE IT.
Remember--not like the 30 of us here represent--well 30 of a bazillion people who would be putting diesel in their gas SUVs if it wasn't that the nozzle don't fit.

Where your 4low went? Here is an actual tape, from the ExpyDave Undercover files (no not THOSE Under Cover files):
"You know what? We can save money, drop 50-75 pounds of dead weight, increase fuel economy, reduce a wear/warranty item--and nobody will ever know the difference! And those that do, we are 'gonna make them upgrade to a higher $$$ package to get it!"

 

[shane_th_ee]

Got some snow and ice recently and figured the Expy should do well with 4WD auto...

My other vehicle (also on all seasons) has a selectable 4-hi mode that locks the differential and it has zero issues.

I think the issue with the Expy is that it waits for a lot of slip to occur before actually transferring power to the front axle, and by then it is too late.

Kind of disappointed that the Expy does not offer a manual 4-hi mode option as standard.

You figured wrong, but you're exactly right: 4A does nothing until AFTER a wheel has started to slip*. You need to change the drive mode from "normal" to "snow" or "mud/ruts/sand". "Mud/ruts/sand" is 4H with all the usual downsides for winter driving (propensity to spin the vehicle on ice, potential damage to the drive train when turning if there's too much traction). "Snow" is going to let the vehicle do it's best to give you as much low traction performance as possible while mitigating the problems of using 4H.

*Well, ok, it'll do torque vectoring and some other neat tricks, but it won't help with traction issues until after a wheel has started to slip...

 

[sjwhiteley]

With regards to the Hankook OEM tires: there are two kinds of the 'same' tire. Those made in the US and those made in Korea (If I recall; not the US, anyway). The US made ones are more expensive and have the 3 peaks snow symbol, the Korean ones - fitted as OEM tires - do not.

 

[Gillbrak]

With regards to the Hankook OEM tires: there are two kinds of the 'same' tire. Those made in the US and those made in Korea (If I recall; not the US, anyway). The US made ones are more expensive and have the 3 peaks snow symbol, the Korean ones - fitted as OEM tires - do not.

Where do you see this info? I only see one option

https://m.hankooktire.com/us/tire/passenger-cars/hankook-dynapro-ht-rh12.html


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[Anerbe]

With regards to the Hankook OEM tires: there are two kinds of the 'same' tire. Those made in the US and those made in Korea (If I recall; not the US, anyway). The US made ones are more expensive and have the 3 peaks snow symbol, the Korean ones - fitted as OEM tires - do not.

Checking Tire Rack, Only two specs for Hankook 285/45R22 - One is the Dynapro HT, other is Dynapro AT2, both produced in Korea according to the site. I don't see options for a second US production spec.

 

[5280tunage]

I would highly doubt that OEM tires would ever show up on an external site. They would 99% of the time be direct order between manufacturers. Just my .02.

 

[sjwhiteley]

Where do you see this info? I only see one option

https://m.hankooktire.com/us/tire/passenger-cars/hankook-dynapro-ht-rh12.html


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Checking Tire Rack, Only two specs for Hankook 285/45R22 - One is the Dynapro HT, other is Dynapro AT2, both produced in Korea according to the site. I don't see options for a second US production spec.

Sorry, should have said I was referring to the OEM Hankook AT-M in 20". There are Korean and US tires.

 

[Anerbe]

I would highly doubt that OEM tires would ever show up on an external site. They would 99% of the time be direct order between manufacturers. Just my .02.

For all the OE marked tires: BMW Star, Mercedes MO, etc... which come on their vehicles, are you saying that none of those are available in the aftermarket? All of the star marked BMW runflats to buy from Tirerack are actually a completely separate developed runflat marked with BMW?

Simple way to verify is check the full DOT codes of the tires you receive as aftermarket and compare to the original tires on the vehicle (or the P/N). I'm sure you'll find most of the same size / product line specs have the same DOT code as what was found on the vehicle (except the date code obviously).

 

[Jimmer]

So as it pertains to driving in the snow (in normal mode) and 4A not engaging front wheels until the rear wheels slip- from my experience that is not always true.

Watching the power distribution screen on the dash, I have noticed that "for a while" after the rear wheels slip and the front wheels engage, the 4A system will actually send more power to the front wheels than rear wheels when you toe into the throttle. Again, this is based only on my observation of the power distribution screen, but I can't imagine why it would be feeding false information. From my observation, the system seemed to default back to "rear first until they slip" after coming to a complete stop or after a prolonged (few minutes) period of driving without any slip. I am not sure if the computer takes temperature/windshield wiper use or other factors into account when making the decision to push more power to the front axle on toe-in. That is certainly a possibility- Every time I had the aforementioned observation, the temp was below 32 f and my windshield wipers were activated.

When in the snow mode, my observations mirror what others have said. The snow mode selection seems to default the power to a 50/50 split front and rear to mimic what a traditional 4H mode would do.

Would be very interesting to know what factors the computer takes into consideration to decide how to allocate power after slippage has happened, and for how long that decision stays implemented. I suspect we'll have to learn from anecdotal observations though, unless someone has a friend who's a ford engineer.