HACKS!!!! and i dont mean the computer kind.

[LEOL]

keeping this simple and unrelated to my plethora of other issues with the vehicle...

i was under the Expedition (06') checking into exhaust related fun's, and i happen to notice...

whats wrong with this picture....?



The rear transmission support mount bolts are missing....



To be honest, this doesnt even rank in the top 10 absolutely stupid things ive seen... BUT it is definitely some pretty quality HACKmanship right here. guessing this happened at the same time every bolt in the exhaust system didnt get tightened at all.

So heres the question. Other than maybe possible extra long term wear... What,... if any, symptoms or problems could or would the trans not being strapped in on the tail cause??? Has anyone ever seen a broken or unbolted rear mount cause anything short term or noticeable as far as driveability??

 

[USMCBuckWild]

Short term as well as long term: excessive vibration/premature failure of driveline components. Odd "humming" sound from passenger compartment,especially under load, thumping sound when shifting from drive to reverse.

That trans mount not being bolted in means the engine mounts are receiving all the strain. The engine torque can cause the entire driveline to shift side to side as well as up and down.

The engine and trans/tcase are basically a lever and the engine mounts and driveshafts are the only thing keeping it from moving around.


Toss a couple bolts in there!

 

[Snag]

USMC gave you a good response. I have found the same, even a couple years later on my 85 F-250 after doing a clutch replacement. So I would recommend some lock-tight on the bolts. Mine were tight (job was done before 60 and memory loss) so they vibrated loose. At least that's my story I am sticking to.

 

[LEOL]

yeah,.. along with wear,... vibration, and clunks were in the back of my mind as obvious possibilities that i didnt exclude... what i was more meaning was possible things like relating to driveability...

basically i was pondering and inquiring whether things like torque might be affected.... such as take off or passing torque that feels like power loss for instance.

on one hand, if the whole driveline is twisting during engine torque... it seems logical that torque would be reduced... then again... there are some questionable vibrations, but i havent been really getting any noticeable clunks or noises, and if it was twisting the driveline enough to be causing my theoretical torque loss... i would think there would probably be some pretty evident noise or even damage consistently present??? i dunno. what you guys think??

anyway, i suppose theres enough room between the hole ant the cross member that they could have vibrated out, i just find the circumstances pretty coincidental.

oh well, its irrelevant either way i guess... gotta go get some bolts for it. By the way... alldata doesnt list the bolt specs... and since theyre gone i dont know what size or length they were.... any recommendations on where to find those bolt specs???

 

[LEOL]

i dunno. what you guys think??

 

[1955moose]

This is going to sound redundant, order them from the dealer, as long as the price isn't to the moon. Dealer usually has size specs. Maybe you can hit your transmission shop, they might know,or have a Expedition, or f150 on their rack. Same goes for service at dealership. Talk nice to service manager, they'll probably have one your year apart in their service bay. Fourth option drive SUV to hardware store, bring different bolts outside till you get one that fits.


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[LEOL]

Yeah, i got the bolts covered... i meant what do you think about.....

on one hand, if the whole driveline is twisting during engine torque... it seems logical that torque would be reduced... then again... there are some questionable vibrations, but i havent been really getting any noticeable clunks or noises, and if it was twisting the driveline enough to be causing my theoretical torque loss... i would think there would probably be some pretty evident noise or even damage consistently present???

 

[1955moose]

Buck wild pretty much covered it. Sorry, but the end of the last post centered around the bolts, and where to find them. With the transmission and engine moving side to side, who knows if anything bad happened. I'd probably replace both engine and the transmission mounts. With only the driveshaft and no crossmember, a lot of twisting was going on. The u joints and if any bearings on driveshaft, should also be replaced. I may be overly cautious, but those items got stressed with no support. Hate to see you get towed home. Money wise your only talking a few hundred in parts, if you change mounts/ u joints yourself. Better to be overly cautious now than later. Especially this cold time of year.


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[LEOL]

im definetly going to be at the very least inspecting all the mentioned parts, but the question im trying to get at here... is the power loss. i understand the possibility of mild to serious wear on the driveline and mounts. i was trying to get your thoughts on whether this specific circumstance might cause noticeable driveability torque/power loss.

 

[USMCBuckWild]

It will cause a dip in torque and possibly driveability. To be honest, probably not enough to be noticeable.

Have you done the basic fluid changes yet? Filter fluid in trans, t/case and differentials? Old,broken down, dirty trans fluid horribly affects the transmission. Pretty easy fix and relatively cheap to do yourself. Don't get sold on a dealer "flush", just do filter and fluid change.

 

[USMCBuckWild]

I'll pull the bolts on my 2012 and take a pic for you, if you need me to.

I would hit up dealer or a pick and pull and get those bolts, atleast to guarantee the size.

 

[1955moose]

Forgot all about pick and pull. Your gonna need to pull yourself a cross member anyway. Cheapest way to do it. Loss of power, I don't think the drive shaft moving a little either direction would cause serious horsepower loss. I'd do the usual, be sure you have a totally unblocked Exaust system, particularly your 4 cats. Check all 4 brakes for dragging, the rears, need to be on the loose side on the shoe adjustment. A sticky rear cable for the e brake will definitely rob horsepower. And perform the usual 100 k tune up. Plugs, coil boots, fuel and air filter .you may want to have a shop that has a sonic fuel injector cleaner, give your SUV a good clean out. Won't hurt, just change your oil afterwards. Lastly, have your transmission checked out, particularly the torque converter. Let us know how it turns out.


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[LEOL]

Yeah, that was kind of my thought process also... i mean theoretically there could be some snap torque loss but, i assume if there were it probably wouldnt be very noticable. ive done most of mentioned things already, for other reasons.... and i NEVER do trans flushes via flush machines on my own vehicles and i HATED selling them as a maintenance jockey. they are usually a good way to cause problems.

unfortunatly im stuck diagnostically until i have money... i dont like throwing parts at things in the name of diagnosing, but the fuel injectors are among possible suspects and they are so old and loud im just going to replace them anyway, so i cant justify cleaning them at the moment.

im in the process of getting around to a flow test on the exhaust, and only other i thing i haven't done is check the brakes for drag... ill be doing that later, because i should, but if that were the case as many miles as ive put on it, it would have probably worn loose and killed the e brake down to noisy or slippery levels by now.

and Buck, thanks for the offer, but you dont need to do that... i pulled the crossmember yesterday to check it out, and now im bummed cuz the holes are stripped to ****, and the bolt hole corner is busted. so ultimately it probably was HACKS not being careful, and after stripping/breaking the hell out of it, they just left it loose or didn't put the bolts back in at all. YAY.... so for now im going to "engineer" it with some JB weld and oversize tap, and hope that itll hold well enough till i can spend 150$ to change the extension housing. if i had the money right now, i would spend a couple extra hundred and just get a tranny rebuild kit, just for fun... but oh well. guess im driving the pontiac for a while.

oh hey, one more thing, ive never really had to do this stuff "at home" with DIY resourses (or lack of)... if/when i decide to rebuild the trans... any recommendations on ramps, stands or other inexpensive ways to get the vehicle blocked up high enough to pull the trans on the ground?? i dont feel like standard little jack stands are gonna get me enough clearance to roll that pig of a trans out from under the vehicle, especially while the trans is sitting on a Jack.

 

[1955moose]

Do you and me a favor. Don't oversize thread it, do helicoil, or nut serts. Keep the threads the same size, it's just the right thing to do, a pack of helicoil inserts are less than $20.00, and come with drill bit, tap, and 10 threadserts. You might have to buy a real sharp titanium bit, for the broken one, or have a shop drill out that one hole. You can do the old hand on warm, not hot Exaust manifold to see if all 8 injectors are spraying. The one that isn't will be cooler than the other 7. Also check for power at each injector plug, with either a test light, or noid light. If you want you can do a infrared temp test of your cats. Temp should be 25-100 degrees hotter at rear of each cat if flowing.


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[1955moose]

Leol just got off phone with my Ford dealer. Your bolts are 12mmx1.75 thread. Sorry couldn't get length, but read in another post online a little under 2 inches. Ford part number is N606090s. Their $7.44 each from dealer, if you go that route. Or just get high strength 8.8 grade metric bolts from Hardware or Auto store.


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[LEOL]

Hey moose, i appreciate you taking the time to ask a dealer (even if you had called for another reason). i actually called them a few days back, and all parts or service could tell me is that it listed as 1/2 inch.... i picked up some 1/2" x 13 bolts and they fit... well... they matched the threads that were left anyway. lol. 1/2" and 12-13mm are similar, so id have to re-examine it... but honestly im probably going to just do a temporary hack for now anyway since i have what i need already.

as far as the length, when i was under it with my 1-1/2 long bolts, i can say for sure that the hole is only a little over 1-1/4 deep.

anyway, as for your earlier suggestion,... i certainly would helicoil the extension if i weren't going to replace it anyway, or if i were doing it on someone elses vehicle... but because of the scenario, im not inclined to even screw around with it once, much less twice... or spend a dime on helicoils for something that im definitely going to replace anyway. so for temporary sake, its getting tapped and glued like a true hack would do. LoL. The vehicle isnt really getting used currently anyway, so im not overly concerned with doing it all proper-like... in fact if i were to heli-coil it all and put it back together, all that would do is promote laziness about actually getting around to replacing the extension because at that point the attitude becomes, "well... its holding fine... i dont really NEED to spend 160$ to replace that extension housing" and then it never happens. LoL

 

[1955moose]

Sounds like wrecking yard time for parts.


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[LEOL]

yeah thats a possibility

 

[LEOL]

Well for follow up sake, i ended up coil'ing the bolt holes because i dont know when ill get around to replacing the extension housing. here are some notes i feel may be good to know.

the LH bolt hole is a little shallower because there is a horizontal housing bolt that intersects the top of the bolt hole. when you tap/coil it, make sure to remove the housing bolt first.

For my sake, the bolt size was irrelevant because i plan to replace the whole housing and didnt want to spend extra money twice... but as moose pointed out, thread repair should be coiled to fit the original bolt size.

In this case i believe (dont quote me, im not 100% sure) the original bolt size is 12mm x 1.75 - length should be 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" long BUT BUT BUT if you are using 1-1/2" long bolts, make sure you use a lock washer and a flat washer, as particularly the LH side bolt hole is only about 1-1/4" deep. the exhaust mount plate and the trans mount are a little more than 1/4" thick so 1-1/2" bolts will work but dont forget the washers or your going to tear the corner of the housing apart when you torque it down.

for my purposes, i used 1/2" x 13pitch bolts and heli-coil repair kit. Again, my housing is broken and will get replaced, so in other circumstances you should probably use OEM size 12mm x 1.75 bolts/coils. or you can do like i did and make a waterproof tag to stick on the bolts that states the bolt size info in case anyone else ever has to deal with it down the road.

also, heli-coils are generally only about 1/2" long, given this long bolt hole and the circumstances i didnt feel comfortable with only the upper portion of the bolt being supported torque wise by less than half the length of the bolts threads. not only is the amount of applicable torque reduced, but it could theoretically also allow for the bolt to rock side to side in the bolt hole... so i double coiled the bolt hole by setting a heli-coil all the way in, remove the tang, count threads from the 1st coil, and snip a second heli-coil to length, (these are steel, so have a good sharp set of ****'s) and insert the second coil all the way till the tang just starts to ride over the first coil's tail, then pull out the tang. Dont forget to use a little bit (emphasis on little bit) of red thread-locker on the coils.

 

[1955moose]

Good deal Leol, you did your repair as professional as a shop. Hopefully our members won't have to do the same crossmember repair, but with so many boneheads out there working on cars/trucks, I'm sure we'll be reading about a similar debauchery in the near future. Good job.


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