Hum? My 1997 Expo's starter engages by itself

[carmelo2215]

I started my 1997 Expo up this morning and varooomed, OK. Then while it was running I hear the starter grind. I first thought my after market alarm. I bypassed it, so the alarm is out of the loop. It pings once when I open the door with no key in the ignition? I tried it again. Put the key in and did not turn it. My starter engaged and started to turn the motor over. Standing outside of the vehicle I heard the starter engage more than once. I am stuck. Any help? thanks.

 

[stamp11127]

Assuming you don't have the remote start....

Check or replace the starter relay on the firewall. If that doesn't fix it then the solenoid on the starter is faulty. One of the two are completing the circuit without being triggered correctly.

 

[rburch]

Any other electrical problems? These have a known windshield leak that drip onto the GEM and causes electrical problems like this. Have you gotten any rain around the time this started?

If not then stamp would have the solution.

 

[carmelo2215]

Yes, It was raining hard cats and dogs hard.
Update: there is 12v on the motor side of the Red/Blue ignition wire. I did pull the fuse 21 out under the dash and the expo does not start by itself any more. If I insert it fuse turn the key to run the starter engages. ?GEM?

 

[carmelo2215]

Is the GEM damaged? Would it be possible to put a fan blowing upward on the drivers side of the dash to dry it out? I was thinking that I could disconnect the trigger wire to the starter relay and jump it to start the vehicle and let it run for an hour or two. Would that work?

No it does not have remote start.

Thanks for your help.

 

[rburch]

Any other noticeable electrical prob. Usually when the gem gets wet it wont have just one thing going nuts! It will be several things!

 

[stamp11127]

In my 99 wiring manual fuse 21 is the hot feed from the ignition switch to the transmission switch - the red/light blue wire. It should only have power in the start position. If it is hot at all times (any position of the ignition switch) you have found your problem.

 

[carmelo2215]

Yes, I had all kinds of other issues including interior lights on and off and door chimes ringing. However those have since gone away (for now).

And yes, I do see power on the circuit when I turn the key to the run position. I am thinking that it could not hurt to try to dry out the system with the fan running, truck running and heat on max.

Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[stamp11127]

The only wires that should be hot in the run position are:
Red/Black
Black/Lt Green
Dark Blue/Lt Green
Grey/Yellow

 

[carmelo2215]

In my 99 wiring manual fuse 21 is the hot feed from the ignition switch to the transmission switch.

Yes in a 99, but in a 97 fuse 21 is the key start. Seen in fig 12 in the link.

| Repair Guides | Wiring Diagrams | Wiring Diagrams | AutoZone.com

I did cut the Red/Lblue wire into. The side going to the key switch tested at O volts. The side tested going to the fuse block tested ?+12 volts? I remove fuse 21 turn the key switch on and starter dose not engage. Remember Red/Lblue wire is cut. Replace the fuse, turn the key to on and starter engages.

Door pings at me anytime without the key in. Interior light flash on and off. Air bag yellow light is flashing.

 

[FairfaxStu]

The odd thing is that the schematic for the starter does not show the GEM module at all - see attached pic. I think that trying to dry it out by starting the vehicle as you described and running a fan under the dash. If you leave it running for an hour or 2 on max heat, it should dry things out. At a minimum, it could not hurt, imo.

 

[stamp11127]

The diagrams for the 97 & 99 are the same logically for this portion of the starting system. Fuse 21 is on the ignition switch side. Fuse 20 is on the Power Distribution/Gem side. After the fuse block both circuits are connected by a Dark Blue/Orange wire, both have the ability to feed power to the starter motor relay. It is possible the GEM is back feeding power on that circuit.

Your link is correct but it doesn't show the GEM side of the circuit.

Pull both fuse 20 & 21 which will isolate the circuits. Reconnect the cut wire. Install fuse 20 (GEM side) and see if the starter engages when the trans is in P or N. If it doesn't your problem is on the ignition switch side.

 

[carmelo2215]

OK, first as a base line I tested with my volt meter to see if I could get the +12 volts on my motor side of the R/LBL cut wire. I detected 0 volts on the motor side?? Replaced both fuses again turned the key to run, got nothing on the 12 volts again? So kinda confusing now. It has been 3 full days sense the rain storm. I have been running heat under the dash, too.

?Next step to connect the R/lbl wire and try to run it, if is what is the solution?

 

[FairfaxStu]

Next step to connect the R/lbl wire and try to run it, if is what is the solution?

Yes. Reconnect the cut R/LBL wire and see if everything is working again. I suspect running the heater on it has dried out everything and fixed the issue. If it does, the next step will be to figure out where the leak is and get that fixed.

 

[carmelo2215]

ok, Heating now for 2 hoursish. Wire Red/LBL is cut. Tried to start SUV and it did start by itself again once, twice after heated. But, then tried again turned to run on the key and nothing. I reconnected the R/LBL wire and started the SUV. It idled good and did not try to start itself again. It did try to start by itself the first time that I turned the key to run. The second time it did not.????

 

[FairfaxStu]

What about the 3rd and 4th times? Also, how about the interior lamps and door chime being freaked out? Is all of that gone?

Once started, did it try to start itself again while it was already running?

 

[carmelo2215]

[QUOTE Once started, did it try to start itself again while it was already running?[/QUOTE]

Nope, Expo's idled correct without trying to start itself. Just the first time that I turned the key to run, it started itself. Second time it did not. Third time it started, ok.

 

[rburch]

The GEM on ford trucks controls EVERYTHING electrical!

 

[FairfaxStu]

Nope, Expo's idled correct without trying to start itself. Just the first time that I turned the key to run, it started itself. Second time it did not. Third time it started, ok.

Ok, so all appears to be back to normal. Can you confirm? If so, make a permanent connection with a butt connector between the spliced ends of the R/LBL wire. Then pop back in your alarm brain. This will allow the doors to lock/unlock from the remote again.

 

[carmelo2215]

Fuse 20 is on the Power Distribution/Gem side. After the fuse block both circuits are connected by a Dark Blue/Orange wire, both have the ability to feed power to the starter motor relay. It is possible the GEM is back feeding power on that circuit.

Pull both fuse 20 & 21 which will isolate the circuits. Reconnect the cut wire. Install fuse 20 (GEM side) and see if the starter engages when the trans is in P or N. If it doesn't your problem is on the ignition switch side.

waited, start tested it again and the starter engaged at idle again. So problem not fixed. Waited, pulled fuse 20. The expo started ok seemed to idle ok. Everything work inside the expo with fuse 20 out. maybe. Will double check in a minute.