Timing set and a startup anomaly question

[whtbronco]

I've heard light chattering from the timing chains at startup for a while on my 2004 5.4L 2V, 299k miles. 42 days ago I started it and immediately it revved to 2300-2400rpm. By the time I looked at the tach it stopped increasing and dropped back to 1200-1300 like normal at cold startup and then slowly settled down until it reached 800 as normal, but with a slight increase in vibration. It's still running okay more or less. The dozen or so subsequent starts have been uneventful. However, it doesn't sound quite right in neutral on quick rev to say 3500rpm. WOT acceleration, in gear of course, feels normal. It sounds a bit deeper, like the timing is off a bit. Maybe the idea that the timing is off at higher throttle application is just my imagination since I know the timing set is nearly worn out.

I'm not so sure the high rpm at startup anomaly is actually related to the timing. I checked for codes, nothing engine related. Just the expected codes for VDM calibration and the drivers side mirror position sensors. I checked the TPS data stream and it seemed to be reading fine. I'm wondering if maybe the IAC valve was stuck for a second for some reason. Any thoughts.


Back to the timing chain stuff.

I like the idea of pulling the followers(rocker arms), but I have trouble grabbing anything in a pinching motion so I'll use the Ford method instead. I'll hold the crank and cams with one of the available 2V timing tool kits.

I'm still toiling with standard or high volume oil pump. Water pump has just 10k miles on it, so I'll leave that for now.

I'm likely gonna use the Melling timing kit and buy the one with cam sprockets since I can't figure out how to identify if mine are replaceable or not until the front cover is removed. I tried to find the difference between Melling service grade and professional grade, but I couldn't really find anything. I have used Ford's service grade parts many times with good results. Due to the lack of info I'll go with prof. grade.

It appears that removing the cooling hoses is the consensus here to help with getting the passenger side valve cover off. Much to my amazement the factory coolant hoses are still intact, except the hoses at the rear for the rear heater core. Now is a good time to replace them all though, 20yrs is long enough considering I'd only expect 5yrs.

Any thoughts on a harmonic damper installer that works without removing the radiator? I need a new one. I hate to spend $110 on one from Freedom Racing since I won't use it many times, but it should work. I am not tapping it on with frickin hammer again and the local parts store rentals didn't work.

Wow the this is complicated and costly compared to an OHV engine.

 

[whtbronco]

The only thing that makes sense to me thus far is the IAC was stuck briefly or it freaked out. Though I'm not so sure the IAC can open enough to rev the engine that quick, maybe. Anyway, this IAC has ~100k miles on it so I'll probably order another with the timing parts and cooling hoses. Looking at it through the throttle body it looks pretty clean, but that's not much of a view

 

[whtbronco]

Go figure just as soon as I decide to replace the timing set it gets quiet and smooth again. All that means is that it's not quite as urgent, but still needs to be done in the near future.

I cannot decide on a full Melling timing set vs all MotorCraft parts. I have found all the OEM parts available for purchase which surprised me. I do have 300k miles on the factory parts, hard to complain about that.

So should I go with plastic or cast iron tensioners. I am slightly concerned that the cast iron tensioners hold the chains tight all the time, but having no gasket is nice too.

FordTech noted that he thinks the OEM chains are better and wear the chain guides less. He described the aftermarket chains as lumpy and that can be seen in one of his videos. Okay no worries, truth is I generally prefer OEM parts anyway. That said every picture I have found of the chains shows OEM and aftermarket look nearly identical.

I tried to check the oil pressure today. I wasn't able to get the connector off. My hands are far too big to get up there and I couldn't find anything to push the clip in. The pick I tried just flexed. I'll try to get a long and rigid pick and then try again.

 

[BigRed2004]

If I’m not mistaken FordTech states that for the 5.4 2V the standard oil pump is fine and there is no need/benefit to a high pressure pump. And that it would make more sense for the 3V as it has the cam phasers that rely on oil pressure.

I would go with the cast iron tensioners over plastic as they won’t fail even if they had a drop in pressure. Once the pin is pulled they should be full go. And there is 0% chance of them ever breaking apart/wearing down from heat cycles compared to the plastic tensioners.

To be fair about my opinion, it comes from 0 experience with doing this kind of job as I’m only at 193K and haven’t had any issues yet with timing or top end. This is just based off of research from forums and yubtub.

 

[whtbronco]

Excellent point on the plastic tensioners BigRed2004 being effected long term from heat cycling. Okay, that makes the decision to go with the Melling cast iron tensioners.

I thought high pressure pumps were primarily for racing engines. However, at 300k miles a high volume standard pressure pump might be a good idea to help compensate for any crank or rod bearing wear. With just an 8% increase in volume over stock it's not a dramatic increase. Or is my thinking off kilter here?

I am also pondering changing the valve seals. Mostly because I have replaced several sets on high mileage OHV engines over the years and it was always fairly easy and helped reduce oil consumption. Certainly not as easy on this engine. Without pulling the heads off I wonder if it's just gonna be too hard. The spring compressor tools vary a bit in design, 1 or 2 piece, different angles, and no clear indication of which is better. I've also yet to find a spark plug hole adapter to use air pressure to hold the valves closed that I really think will work and is available. I suspect the best adapter would be rigid and just long enough to reach out of the intake manifold. I'm bettin' a flexible hose would be a challenge to thread in and at best would be just barely hand snug.

 

[SafariGoneWrong]

I faced the same tensioner dilemma last year when going into the 3V to replace the lash adjusters--one was making noise only when cold--and also to ditch the 80 psi M360 I put on in 2017. There's a Ford Tech Talk (not Makuloco) video on YouTube that goes into the relationship between the tensioners oil supply and the VCT system. Of course, this isn't applicable to the 2V; however, what they said stuck with me--the tensioners' seal purpose "is only a dam to prevent noise on cold starts". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQbAC6TP3XYThat's what sold me on OE tensioners. I don't trust metal on metal to provide a sufficient seal after the engine sits for a while, especially since my XLT is not a daily driver and borderline hangar queen. Those timing chains are long and heavy, and any slapping against the plastic guides can't be a good thing.

I also saw the Melling HV pump for the 2V is 8% over OE. Here are some numbers with aftermath: (1) Melling HV pump on my Ford Bronco 4.9 rated at 25% over stock separated the canister from the base on a Motorcraft FL-1A filter (rated at 200 psi burst). (2) Melling M340HV pump on my XLT 5.4 3V sent both VTC solenoids to wide open and wouldn't return to closed even after pulling the connectors. I'm sure 8% would be harmless... The only positives were the HVs primed really fast. I couldn't get the M360 or M340 to prime by cranking the engine--had to start it.

Going back to the harmonic balancer puller. I bought an EverTough 67006 from O'Reilly long ago and it's just long enough for my 3V. I'd imagine the 2V is the same but not sure. The LS guys claim it's not long enough. I pull the radiator when taking off the front cover for the extra room and peace of mind; also, my technique for tackling the aft oil pump pickup bolt is to hang semi-inverted over the radiator support and brush guard with the 8mm flex head, and the radiator in place wouldn't allow that. I can't do it from the bottom.

The power steering pump pulley has never been a problem for me getting access to the three pump bolts. I don't know if the '04 has additional impediments to the '06 though.

Last thought: OEM vs Melling or other. A Melling lash adjuster on the right bank got noisy when cold 20K miles after installing. All Melling roller followers felt the same--still had some resistance to rolling after 20K miles, just like out of the box. All pieces now in the 3V are OEM except for the pump and roller followers.

 

[whtbronco]

Thanks SafariGoneWrong, some very good insight there.

I keep flip flopping on the tensioners. That video provided some interesting info. It does make a case for plastic tensioners. I keep thinking that the chains slapping the guides until oil pressure builds will rapidly accelerate wear on them and might lead to breaking them. The metal to metal seal doesn't bother me too much anymore. It certainly used to, but I've seen quite a few in say the last 10 years. They do have to be machined well. One thing about the cast iron tensioners is that I believe they have a stronger spring and are ratcheting so they can't contract much when there's no hydraulic pressure. If this is accurate it should help prevent the chains from slapping against the guides until oil pressure is present.

Holy crap, I had no idea that the HV oil pump I put in my 351M engines was a 25% volume increase. I had to go check after seeing your 300 info above. I do recall reading about your 3V issues that do seem appropriately attributed to the HV oil pump. The 2V increase of 8% is not a big increase and there's a very good chance simply installing a new pump will increase the current oil volume more than that after 300k miles. Speaking of which, I believe the oil pump rear plate is just a metal to metal seal. I found this after seeing that MMR makes a high volume and high pressure pump for racing engines only, but it includes an o-ring style seal. Anyway, at 8% increase and 300k miles it's probably a toss up and not likely to cause or cure problems.

Maybe a year ago an O'Reilly's opened nearby. I'll head over there and take a look at the EverTough harmonic balancer installer. Thanks for the suggestion.

I suspect I'll also be hanging over the front end to get the pickup tube bolts back in. I can't see them being easily accessible from below except maybe if it's on a lift. I had not considered pulling the radiator, but it would add some room and protect it. I'm gonna drain the coolant anyway so it's not much more work. Good idea, thanks for this suggestion.

Your experience is certainly making me wonder if the Melling tensioners are a good idea. I do generally tend to go with OEM parts. They often seem to be slightly higher quality, but at a premium price. I'm also wondering if I should be considering replacement of the followers and lash adjusters. If it was OHV lifters I wouldn't likely replace them though. Course rockers and lifters on an OHV engine would be vastly easier to replace. I swapped 2 of the rockers on my 78 Bronco in about 30 minutes after the pushrods went through 2 of them. I swapped those 2 pushrods and the rest of the rockers the following weekend. That was at like 500k miles though.

 

[whtbronco]

Part of the problem here for me is that is far too much information easily available now days. I also tend to over think things as my wife calls it. I just want to ensure I get what I want/need the first time.

Took me a while to find this tensioner info, understand and summarize it, so here's what I found:
Cast iron tensioners have a built in fail safe ratchet in case of oil pressure loss. I'd never seen it described as fail safe, but it confirms my thought that they maintain some tension at all times that is augmented by hydraulic pressure. There are reports that they can get too tight and cause rapid wear on the chain guides, but this appears to be mostly related to high rpm and high power engines. Yet some suggest that the too tight issue also occurs with manual transmissions when power shifted. Ford also decided something was an issue and changed from the cast iron to plastic tensioners. Of course no gasket is required for these.

Plastic tensioners will allow the chain to completely relax and the next time the oil pressure returns it must pump up the tensioner to take up the slack. The gasket can blow out reducing the oil pressure to an insufficient level. The original design had the gasket glued on. Supposedly Ford updated the design to prevent gasket blow out.

One thing I have been trying to identify is if I have replaceable cam sprockets or not on my 5.4 2V. My research has shown that cam sprockets are replaceable only on aftermarket or Romeo engine camshafts. It appears that all 5.4's are Windsors. It also appears that Romeo engines have 11 bolt valve covers and 5.4/Windsor engines have 13/14 bolt valve covers. Based on that my 2004 5.4 2V does not have replaceable cam sprockets.

The plan when we purchased the Expedition new was to keep it to 400k miles knowing it won't likely last as long as my 78/79 Bronco's did. I suspect I'll get 100k out of either tensioner style. I tend to prefer mechanical and manual over electronic or automatic. I just cannot decide so my wife said "WTF is your problem, get the updated Ford part and be done with it. The original Ford design lasted almost 300k miles what more do you expect." LOL, she knows me well. So I'm going with OEM plastic tensioners. The rest of the timing parts will be OEM replacements as well. I'll use Fel-Pro gaskets all around.

For those interested I found OEM cast iron tensioners. $154 for the pair from Modular Motorsports Racing, which I suspect are likely to be the same part as the Melling cast iron tensioners.

The only thing left to determine is standard or high volume oil pump. I hope to try and check the oil pressure again soon. Maybe this time I'll be able to get the connector off. If I fail to get the connector off again I'll just go with a standard volume pump.

 

[BigRed2004]

@whtbronco, one trick I saw some time back to prevent valve drop is to put a long plastic straw/dowel down the spark plug hole and crank your engine manually. You’re watching for the straw/dowel to reach TDC or near TDC. Then you can compress the springs on that cylinder and not worry about valve drop because the piston is up. It’s not as pretty as using air tools, but the piston is a good stop and it’s one less thing hanging over/around as you work on the valve seals. Not sure if you want to do that much manual labor though to go through each cylinder and replace all (16) seals.

I could be wrong about my thinking on the oil pump, but if you replace it with a standard pump that should help with the pressure also because it’s not as worn as your 300K unit. I hope you are able to successfully run your test though so you feel comfortable with your choice.

 

[whtbronco]

@BigRed2004, well the idea of getting the piston to TDC to hold the valves closed or nearly closed is interesting. Since these are interference engines it might actually hold the valve high enough to get the locks and spring off/on. Hmm, something to think about, thanks. Years ago I used rope through the spark plug hole, and then rotated to TDC or close based on resistance, but I don't think that would work with recessed plugs like these engines. Once I found the air compressor adapter I never tried anything else, but that's easy with a spark plug on the side of the head on an OHV engine. Every method seems to require some manual turning of the rotating assembly anyway.

No you're absolutely right, just replacing the oil pump will increase the volume and might even be a decent amount of increase quite frankly. I just need to find a long and stiff pick or something similar since my hand is never going to reach the oil sender.

 

[BigRed2004]

@whtbronco, here is a link to the video using the straw trick on to find TDC and prevent valve drop.

 

[whtbronco]

Thank you @BigRed2004. I happened to see that video and a few others yesterday evening, but every one of them was related to the 4.6. While similar the 5.4 has a taller deck height meaning that the valve could drop . That might be too far, I dunno.

Here's some of the differences between the 4.6 and 5.4 I found. If I am reading this correctly, and I'm not sure I am, the 5.4 will have .25" more distance between the head and the piston. The videos reported about .5" drop in the valves on the 4.6 engine, so the valves in the 5.4 could possibly drop about .75" before reaching the piston at TDC.

4.6 bore/stroke 3.55/3.54 deck height 8.937
Difference of .63 stroke

5.4 bore/stroke 3.55/4.17 deck height 10.079
Difference of 1.142 deck height

 

[BigRed2004]

Your average valve length is 4.6” so you would be fine based on the math. But I can understand if you are concerned and want to find a different method. Just wanted to give you an option. Let us know what you go with and how well it worked.

 

[whtbronco]

I had an idea. See what ya think.

If I compress the spring I can push the valve down if it doesn't just drop. It should rest on the piston before the spring is fully compressed if this method will work. If it doesn't touch the piston and spring is compressed then it's a no go. I have a flexible hose style adapter for my air compressor if needed. It might work.

I ordered 2 spring compressors. Both similar in design, 1 has a roll pin to hold it together, the other is a 2 piece design. Here's a pic of the 1 with a roll pin.

 

[BigRed2004]

That method could work, because you should see the valve and keeper sticking up as the spring continues to compress. So it is a safe way to test the theory before moving forward.

The thing that is nice about that tool you have pictured is that you can do this job without worrying about removing any of the CAM caps.

 

[whtbronco]

True, I will say the spring compressor that bolts onto the cam cap mounts looks much easier to use. If I have trouble with the springs under the cowl I think I'll pull the camshafts and pick up one like this.

 

[BigRed2004]

Have you had a chance to perform the job? Curious to know your experience with either tool.

 

[whtbronco]

I have not. Parts and tools are on order. Most have arrived. I'm waiting on valve cover gaskets and the crankshaft sprocket.

Due to my health issues I suspect it'll take me 2-3 weeks to complete this task though.

I was also informed yesterday that my daughter may be returning from deployment 7 months early so I have to get her car ready to go. The next 2 weekends will be spent on that. PCV, valve seals, cv axle, upper strut mount, remove and clean intake manifold and secure the urethane strips on the roof.

 

[BigRed2004]

You definitely have a busy schedule ahead of you. Best of luck to you with all of that, hopefully repairs go smooth. Hope the health issues don’t get worse or hinder you too much.

 

[whtbronco]

I've had a few requests for an update about the timing set replacement. Good and bad news. The good news is the cold startup chatter is intermittent and not frequent currently.

The bad news is I had 2 cold morning starts where something was knocking quite loudly for a 3-5 seconds. My initial thought was a lifter/lash adjuster that had was stuck or had to pump up. It did not sound like rod knock. It has not occurred since, ~3k miles ago, but it leaves me wondering about just replacing the lash adjusters and rockers as well.

The other bad news is clearly this task has not yet been accomplished. It's scheduled for the 2nd week in June. I have to wait until the tree pollen calms down before I spend time outside.