Cam Phaser Questions

[StillwaitinginTX]

I find humor in following these threads. I have a 2019 F150 3.5 Ecoboost with ~59.9k miles. At some point, I had them run the recall on the cam phaser issue. It didn't resolve the problem. After getting tired of my truck sounding like a diesel, I got it in for the first cam phaser replacement (It took like a month to get a service appointment so I could THANKFULLY get a loaner.) My truck was in the shop from 1/13/21-1/25/21. All was well until I heard that shutter again. Another appointment and loaner car, and I had a second replaced. Truck was in the shop from 11/22/21-12/14/22 on that one. Sometime after that, I began smelling an intermittent burning smell. Something like oil burning. So, I scheduled another appointment and got it in on 3/26/22 (desperately trying to get it in before hitting 60k miles). On 4/14/22, my service advisor called me and told me it was a valve cover, valve cover gasket, high pressure fuel pump o-ring, and a manifold gasket. As of today, I STILL don't have my truck! Now, I've put 5k miles on the Bronco Sport they loaned my (it drives like a go-cart and has it's own rattle that appears to be serial based on other threads I've read... I believe it's the emergency brake cable harmonizing and rattling at low speeds), and I'm wondering if they're wanting to hold onto my truck while we're waiting on my wife's Stealth Max that keeps getting delayed. I can't believe its taking so long and have just ordered a Rav4 Hybrid to swap out to because I'm not going to risk further problems with this truck while waiting on my 2 hours in Lightning reservation to finally get placed sometime in 2023. Sigh. Ford is really creating a mess!

 

[Jettix2]

IMO, I wouldn't get the update. I did. It doesn't appear to be reversable or Ford has decided not to reverse the programing like they did in the past. Mine 2018 with 45k, shutter (after program), is going in for new heads in a couple weeks. There has been a design change, but I don't know exactly when Ford incorporated the new heads on factory production vehicles.

Have you had this completed yet? How did it turn out?

 

[apex96]

I was told that the cam phaser isn't getting oil pressure properly. Now this could be from a front cam journal that was not factory machined to the proper tolerance, or because the cam cap isn't keeping things together properly leading to the worn journal/cam phaser oil issue. So yes I believe, a leak, resulting in low pressure. I hear they went from a 2 bolt to 3 bolt cap. I thought someone mentioned 3 to 4, but I am pretty sure the new head is a 3 bolt cap. Right?

John, any update on the new heads? Have they been installed and was it determined that the new heads are in fact a different design?

 

[Jettix2]

John,
I am attaching a page out of the Ford service manual that shows the head design on my 2018. Notice the 3-bolt mega cap. Save this image to your phone, and then request to perform a receipt inspection of your new heads when they come in.
See if you are getting a new design or just new(rebuilt) 2018 model heads.
View attachment 73485

Do we have any more info on these new style heads? I sent you a PM....

 

[JasonH]

I’ll tell you one thing there is absolutely no chance I would own this car if I didn’t have an extended warranty. I

That's my take as well. Great vehicle, as long as it has a warranty. It's sad that Ford can't get its act together.

 

[Squark]

That's my take as well. Great vehicle, as long as it has a warranty. It's sad that Ford can't get its act together.

I'm getting to the point where I don't want to own it under warranty either. I'm about to drop mine off for a second cam phaser replacement plus some other warranty work. The next available appointment is a month out and they estimated 1 week to complete the work with no loaners available. Even though the repairs are covered by the ESP, I'm still out hundreds of dollars in rentals.

 

[Jettix2]

I'm getting to the point where I don't want to own it under warranty either. I'm about to drop mine off for a second cam phaser replacement plus some other warranty work. The next available appointment is a month out and they estimated 1 week to complete the work with no loaners available. Even though the repairs are covered by the ESP, I'm still out hundreds of dollars in rentals.

I'm curious to know what my current Repair Order will total before the warranty picks up the tab ($100 ded)..........I'm guessing $12-15k. Crazy. Thank heavens we have a spare car, as it's a PITA otherwise.

 

[Johnb21]

John, any update on the new heads? Have they been installed and was it determined that the new heads are in fact a different design?

Yes, it was determined that the heads were a different design. I do not have the shuttering issue anymore. The turbo rattle is a still there at cold start, but less noticeable when hot. My old turbos rattled all the time, not just under cold start. I think the spring mod that I say on the F-150 site is probably a better remedy than new turbos. I wasn't having any cam phaser noise issues at the time they replaced the heads. The phasers had been replaced about 20k miles before the heads where done. I still have a rattle/buzz at 1100-1300rpm under load. Sounds like a heatshield vibrating. That noise was there before the heads were done and I thought it would go away once the shuttering was fixed. It is going in next week to for the rattle/buzz thing.

 

[Jettix2]

Yes, it was determined that the heads were a different design. I do not have the shuttering issue anymore. The turbo rattle is a still there at cold start, but less noticeable when hot. My old turbos rattled all the time, not just under cold start. I think the spring mod that I say on the F-150 site is probably a better remedy than new turbos. I wasn't having any cam phaser noise issues at the time they replaced the heads. The phasers had been replaced about 20k miles before the heads where done. I still have a rattle/buzz at 1100-1300rpm under load. Sounds like a heatshield vibrating. That noise was there before the heads were done and I thought it would go away once the shuttering was fixed. It is going in next week to for the rattle/buzz thing.

So, what did you do/say to get the new style heads? LOTS of people are interested to know because it seems like it might be the "ultimate" fix for cam phaser failure. Any other info on these new heads would be awesome to find out, ie when they went into production so we know if there is a date beyond which any potential purchase is "all clear"....

 

[Hokieskins]

My dealer took apart the whole front end to repair

 

[Jettix2]

My dealer took apart the whole front end to repair

WOW!!

 

[Jettix2]

UNOFFICIAL word from someone "in the know" on one of the other message boards, who has firsthand knowledge of the cam phaser failure, software re-flash, new design cam phasers, and the new style heads.....

"The combination of stretched timing chains and surging/hesitation issues after having FSA 21B10 (re-flash) completed are a clear indication that the engine was ran low on oil and/or wasn’t maintained properly. Many times people will change the oil at the maximum interval of 10k miles, regardless of the maintenance indicator."

"Low oil level/poor maintenance will typically show up first as cam journal scoring, since they’re at the uppermost part of the lubrication system. When the mega caps (front) become scored, oil pressure bleeds off instead of going to the phaser. In the new calibration (21B10), the phasers remain off of base timing more often (to prevent wear), so additional oil volume is required. When the cam caps are scored and oil bleeds off, the phaser cannot be properly controlled. This results in the timing jumping around, which is felt as a surge, shudder, or hesitation. The heads had some changes to the mega caps on later models, I would suspect this was to make them less susceptible to damage from a low oil level. The scoring in the cap journals would require cylinder head replacement."

FYI for everyone, hope it helps.

 

[Soliyou]

UNOFFICIAL word from someone "in the know" on one of the other message boards, who has firsthand knowledge of the cam phaser failure, software re-flash, new design cam phasers, and the new style heads.....

"The combination of stretched timing chains and surging/hesitation issues after having FSA 21B10 (re-flash) completed are a clear indication that the engine was ran low on oil and/or wasn’t maintained properly. Many times people will change the oil at the maximum interval of 10k miles, regardless of the maintenance indicator."

"Low oil level/poor maintenance will typically show up first as cam journal scoring, since they’re at the uppermost part of the lubrication system. When the mega caps (front) become scored, oil pressure bleeds off instead of going to the phaser. In the new calibration (21B10), the phasers remain off of base timing more often (to prevent wear), so additional oil volume is required. When the cam caps are scored and oil bleeds off, the phaser cannot be properly controlled. This results in the timing jumping around, which is felt as a surge, shudder, or hesitation. The heads had some changes to the mega caps on later models, I would suspect this was to make them less susceptible to damage from a low oil level. The scoring in the cap journals would require cylinder head replacement."

FYI for everyone, hope it helps.

Thanks for sharing. I don't think "low oil/poor maintenance" is to blame here. Some users had cam phaser rattle at 25K miles with full synthetic oil and 5,000 miles OCI.

I checked Ford parts website, and indeed, there is a new part number for the head (HL3Z-6049-J and K) and the original part has been discontinued. The new part works for all second gen Ecoboost since 2017. That adds $2,000 more to an already expensive repair . May be we just put a new engine if we want this fixed out of warranty.

 

[JasonH]

I call bull. How would someone know to change the oil specifically at 10K unless the OLM is instructing them to? I've also seen comments about people having the issue even with routine oil changes. I think there's a design flaw that is preventing adequate oil to the heads. See below for comments of owners performing 5K OCI and still having the issue.

3.5EB Cam phaser issues: Let's discuss possible causes :) - Ford F150 Forum - Community of Ford Truck Fans

2015 - 2020 Ford F150 - 3.5EB Cam phaser issues: Let's discuss possible causes :) - Hey guys, since many of us have nothing better to do than kill some time (ha ha), I just wanted to start a new thread of how to try to avoid the dreaded cam phaser issue... if we can. So let's start with the...

www.f150forum.com

 

[BMW2FORD]

I call bull as well! Obviously Ford is kicking the can down the road here and the phasers are not the only thing being properly repaired. Look at the plastic oil pans. Tons of people not only with the 3.5 but the 2.7 liter engines having them replaced over and over due to no gasket. The pan has to be replaced each time and is one time use. Finally, there's a gasket for the 2.7 but why none for the 3.5 and why does it take this long for a correct repair or an upgrade to the aluminum pan? Ford is wondering why Warranty expenses are so high and the CEO blames Warranty expense for holding back the company on many news press discussions but they need to realize they are tripping over dollars to pick up pennies not fixing the huge amount of problems the 4th gen cars have correctly the first time and doing it three of four times. I'm sure this stems through the company if we are seeing it on one of the most expensive models they build. They are also loosing customers and this is why Toyota and Honda came into the Market so strong and almost destroyed them in the 1980's. The list goes on from Turbo's rattling, 10 speed 10R80 neutral out issues, water pumps, thermostats, mirrors not finding their home position, simple sticking trunk buttons, bank 2 cat efficiency faults, AC issues, front wheel bearings and on and on. What's even worse is a car at this price point should be having many of these items addresses as a service action proactively but that's not happening either. Sorry for the rant, I love my Ford but thought they would be stepping up or at least addressing these issues with updated parts quicker. I'm on my third set of phasers and the new ones have a totally different tap noise started cold and hot the day it was returned as well as just about every 4th gen problem known to these cars and realizing the same parts are just getting thrown back in so I get to do this all over again if I plan on keeping the truck.

 

[Jettix2]

Thanks for sharing. I don't think "low oil/poor maintenance" is to blame here. Some users had cam phaser rattle at 25K miles with full synthetic oil and 5,000 miles OCI.

I checked Ford parts website, and indeed, there is a new part number for the head (HL3Z-6049-J and K) and the original part has been discontinued. The new part works for all second gen Ecoboost since 2017. That adds $2,000 more to an already expensive repair . May be we just put a new engine if we want this fixed out of warranty.

I don’t have

I call bull. How would someone know to change the oil specifically at 10K unless the OLM is instructing them to? I've also seen comments about people having the issue even with routine oil changes. I think there's a design flaw that is preventing adequate oil to the heads. See below for comments of owners performing 5K OCI and still having the issue.

3.5EB Cam phaser issues: Let's discuss possible causes :) - Ford F150 Forum - Community of Ford Truck Fans

2015 - 2020 Ford F150 - 3.5EB Cam phaser issues: Let's discuss possible causes :) - Hey guys, since many of us have nothing better to do than kill some time (ha ha), I just wanted to start a new thread of how to try to avoid the dreaded cam phaser issue... if we can. So let's start with the...

www.f150forum.com

I’m just relaying what I was told. Whether it was due to lack of prior maintenance on mine (purchased CPO with 59k and no service records) or just a crappy design, the cam journal scoring makes sense as to why it surges after the re-flash, etc.

 

[Jettix2]

I call bull as well! Obviously Ford is kicking the can down the road here and the phasers are not the only thing being properly repaired. Look at the plastic oil pans. Tons of people not only with the 3.5 but the 2.7 liter engines having them replaced over and over due to no gasket. The pan has to be replaced each time and is one time use. Finally, there's a gasket for the 2.7 but why none for the 3.5 and why does it take this long for a correct repair or an upgrade to the aluminum pan? Ford is wondering why Warranty expenses are so high and the CEO blames Warranty expense for holding back the company on many news press discussions but they need to realize they are tripping over dollars to pick up pennies not fixing the huge amount of problems the 4th gen cars have correctly the first time and doing it three of four times. I'm sure this stems through the company if we are seeing it on one of the most expensive models they build. They are also loosing customers and this is why Toyota and Honda came into the Market so strong and almost destroyed them in the 1980's. The list goes on from Turbo's rattling, 10 speed 10R80 neutral out issues, water pumps, thermostats, mirrors not finding their home position, simple sticking trunk buttons, bank 2 cat efficiency faults, AC issues, front wheel bearings and on and on. What's even worse is a car at this price point should be having many of these items addresses as a service action proactively but that's not happening either. Sorry for the rant, I love my Ford but thought they would be stepping up or at least addressing these issues with updated parts quicker. I'm on my third set of phasers and the new ones have a totally different tap noise started cold and hot the day it was returned as well as just about every 4th gen problem known to these cars and realizing the same parts are just getting thrown back in so I get to do this all over again if I plan on keeping the truck.

Agreed. My wife says this is her favorite vehicle that we’ve ever owned. It is also the least reliable/most problematic. The stuff that has broken on this car in our ownership would be understandable if it was a Porsche or 7-Series BMW…..but it’s rediculous on a family-hauler that cost $80k+ new. Wheel bearings, power boards, panoroof track, brake caliper, leaking turbo, leaking valvecover gasket, unknown coolant consumption, can phasers, wastegates rattling and now what I suspect is cam journal wear……at 74k miles.... as soon as we get it back, I’m getting rid of it. Super sad, we love the car but the quality and durability is definitely not there. I swore our last GM suv off as the last I’d own (a 14 Escalade ESV) but that car was leaps and bounds better than this one. Ugh.

 

[BMW2FORD]

It's a real shame, it could be an awesome truck with lots of loyal owners if they would focus on fixing them right the first time and being more proactive. I'm in the same boat and really just thinking of trading it in for another brand vehicle until Ford figures itself out.

 

[Soliyou]

It's a real shame, it could be an awesome truck with lots of loyal owners if they would focus on fixing them right the first time and being more proactive. I'm in the same boat and really just thinking of trading it in for another brand vehicle until Ford figures itself out.

Yup, real shame. This is the best product in the market within this category but Ford needs to focus more on reliability.

I was in Florida last week and it seems that all vehicles over there are 4th gen expeditions! Literally in any traffic light you would be surrounded by 4-5 expeditions at least!

 

[5280tunage]

Yes, it was determined that the heads were a different design. I do not have the shuttering issue anymore. The turbo rattle is a still there at cold start, but less noticeable when hot. My old turbos rattled all the time, not just under cold start. I think the spring mod that I say on the F-150 site is probably a better remedy than new turbos. I wasn't having any cam phaser noise issues at the time they replaced the heads. The phasers had been replaced about 20k miles before the heads where done. I still have a rattle/buzz at 1100-1300rpm under load. Sounds like a heatshield vibrating. That noise was there before the heads were done and I thought it would go away once the shuttering was fixed. It is going in next week to for the rattle/buzz thing.

I actually had to have the F150 spring fix done before they would replace my turbos at 9k miles, due to the loud rattle. Didn't do a thing to help.