Anyone repair their frame or am I boned pt2?

[Al Steel]

I guess I'm a glutton for punishment. I anyone recalls (or cares) I bought a completely trashed 03 Expy earlier in the year (Read Part 1 Here ). Thought it was good just needing a few repairs but literally EVERYTHING was bad on it, except the interior which was quite nice. Sold it for scrap and was sad... Fast forward about 3 months and I found my current rig and picked it up for a song... happy again. It had issues that I am slowly working through but the biggest one is staring me in the face right now and I need some advice.

There is a gash in the bottom of the frame just rear of the front driver side (pics later). It's on the bottom of the frame and the metal is split, like someone drove a jack or something right through the steel. It's literally an open gash about a foot long, not rust. Looks like the PO jumped curb or a cliff or something and impaled it on a pointy rock. It's not deformed or bents. There is no rust anywhere else on the frame but the gash is starting to rust underneath. I seriously doubt it has compromised the safety of the truck because the surrounding metal is solid on all 3 other sides. So here is my plan.

- Cut out the jagged parts of the gash so I have a nice straight clean opening.
- Grind away any surface rust I find.
- Undercoat/stop rust the INSIDE of the frame opening liberally.
- Get a piece of steel the same wall thickness or thicker.
- Weld it to the bottom of the frame to cover the hole as cleanly as possible.
- Grind down / blend the edges so it doesn't look so much like a home grown repair.
- Paint / undercoat it and drive it on a dirt / muddy road to cover up the freshness of the repair.
- Take it to an inspector and cross my fingers!

I wouldn't even worry about repairing it, but in Northern VA we have some very strict safety inspections. If an inspector sees any kind of frame damage it will fail. Then I'm boned because that is a scarlet letter that will follow it to any other inspector I take it to.

Anyone think this will work? I only have one shot to get it to pass for that repair. I REALLY don't want to have to scrap this truck too, I finally got it riding nice and running smooth. Thoughts and suggestions appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[David E]

Sounds like a pretty solid plan. I would also have someone who specializes in frame work (not unheard of) and have him validate the work for a small fee, that would be YOUR safety slip. I did similar when had to cut my whole front end, and welded new steel back on.
Good luck.

 

[Hamfisted]

Have you run it by a body shop or one that does frame repair ? Virginia has some pretty strict regs on frame damage and repair. It could very well be why the previous owner sold it.
Your idea doesn't sound bad to me, but I'm not a Virginia vehicle inspector.


Virginia Vehicle Inspection Regs regarding vehicle frame condition....

" Frame or unitized (monocoque) body of any motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer possesses one or more of the following defective characteristics: rust holes; any area of the frame or its components is broken, cracked, sagging, or bent; or damaged at any location to include any welded joint; the frame is corroded to the point where it is weakened; or any holes are drilled in the top or bottom rail flanges of the frame or the frame or cross-member (except as specified by the manufacturer).

NOTE: Any welded repair of the frame must be in accordance with the vehicle manufacturer's recommendations. "







.

 

[Al Steel]

Thanks guys. Taking it for a pre-inspection inspection is not a bad idea. Unfortunately there are damn few shops in NoVA that will touch a frame. There is a truck shop west of me that may do this kind of work so worth a shot.

I live in a very uppity county and good, honest repair shops that won't rip you off or charge you ridiculous prices for modest repairs are non-existent. I had a shop quote me nearly $1300 to replace the front struts on a 05 Caravan! Wtf?! I bought the OEM LKQ quick struts for $300 for the pair and installed myself in less than 2 hours. Crazy!

So I'm not hopeful that I'm going to find a local shop for this repair that won't want an arm and a lease on my leg to fix it.

 

[whtbronco]

@Al Steel, you could try calling a body shop out in Winchester. It'd be a bit of a drive for ya, but we have more shops willing to work with you on stuff than you're likely to find around the beltway and at lower prices. I'm guessin' you're in or around Arlington, Fairfax or Loudoun, I grew up in that turd hole. You could call Jeff at Costello's Body Shop and talk to him about it, https://www.costellosbody-paintshop.com/ .

Why not have a good welder cut out the bad area, weld in a piece that fits and grind the weld flush. Then spray undercoating on the frame and call it a day.

I drilled all kinds of holes in my truck frames in years past and never once got questioned on that during inspection. With all the mods on my lifted Broncos and Ranger the inspectors in Fairfax and Loudoun were always very picky with me.

 

[Al Steel]

@Al Steel, you could try calling a body shop out in Winchester. It'd be a bit of a drive for ya, but we have more shops willing to work with you on stuff than you're likely to find around the beltway and at lower prices. I'm guessin' you're in or around Arlington, Fairfax or Loudoun, I grew up in that turd hole. You could call Jeff at Costello's Body Shop and talk to him about it, https://www.costellosbody-paintshop.com/ .

Why not have a good welder cut out the bad area, weld in a piece that fits and grind the weld flush. Then spray undercoating on the frame and call it a day.

I drilled all kinds of holes in my truck frames in years past and never once got questioned on that during inspection. With all the mods on my lifted Broncos and Ranger the inspectors in Fairfax and Loudoun were always very picky with me.

Yeah, LoCo is major PAIN and big $$$ for everything! It was great until about 20 years ago when it went from mostly rural to nothing but rich suburbia. I have no problem driving out to Winchester (grew up near that area) and was actually trying to find a shop out that way or in Berryville to do the work. Maybe an inspection shop that isn't as picky about non-structural frame rust. I will call Costello's, thanks for that! A friend of mine in PA welds and I was also planning on going to see him if I couldn't get it done here for a reasonable price... which leads me to..

I took it to a local shop for an estimate and pre-inspection inspection. He not only confirmed the spot that I saw, but also found two other spots near the back of the car that I didn't get to see which he stated would be a larger issue. In fact, he suggested scrapping the vehicle based on that (!!). Pics below. To me, the frame looks to be in good shape with just these two spots. Yeah, there is some rust but it's certainly not to the point of condemnation. Doesn't look like a Herculean effort to fix but I'll let you guys be the judge.

Welders, body people please weigh in..

The ugly but not so bad... looks like someone tried to jack it up from the bottom of the frame and it didn't go well. Cut out the jagged bits, hammer sides flat, weld in a flat piece on the bottom and it would be good.



The bad... inside of passenger rear frame, outside is good. Looks like a candidate for a steel slip on repair, if it exists... otherwise ???



Seriously though, are these frames made of CHEESE or just a bad design that allows water, salt and grime to pool in these spots?! Not the first I've seen to rust out there. Advice appreciated. Thanks!

 

[sjwelds]

I'm a welder by trade.

I wouldn't want to tackle that. Too many curves and irregularities, plus, with that much rust, there's no telling how much you'd have to cut back to get to good solid steel.

Also, I don't think you'll be able to hide the fact that the frame has been repaired. Any decent sharp-eyed inspector will be able to see it, no matter how good your welder is.

Last but not least, anytime you weld on a frame, you crystallize the steel right next to the weld, and chances are pretty good it will crack right next to the weld.........

 

[Al Steel]

sjwelds - Thanks for your reply. I've seen that the Expys have a separate rear frame that is welded to the front. Would it be possible to purchase a donor rear frame (can be had for ~$300), pull out the old and just weld in the replacement. Won't require a full, off-frame replacement, just drop the rear 1/3rd? Maybe that's a novice question because you would have to pull the entire frame to get the front and back to mate up properly?

Just looking for options to scrapping a perfectly good truck. NoVA SUCKS with their restrictions.

I don't think the fact the frame was repaired will fail an inspection. it just has to be repaired to manufacturer specifications... w/e the F' that means.

 

[whtbronco]

Ahh the good 'ole days when LoCo was farm land and rte 7 was a 2 lane road.

Well that area in the front doesn't look too bad to me. The rear area is pretty impressive. I'm kinda lost on what to suggest here. The idea of replacing the rear of the frame isn't bad, and if the drivers side is even close to that condition it may be the only option. I wonder if the cost would be worth it though. Maybe Jeff can give you some guidance on that.

I've had some old trucks, that I dearly miss, and none had frame rust anywhere near that extent.

 

[Broncoholic]

That frame is scary. It's literally rusting from the inside out. My opinion, that "gash" in the front of the frame is also rust from the inside out and the previous owner either accidentally put a jack throug it, or purposely bent the edges in to see how bad it was and do a visual inspection. That's probably when he decided to sell it for a song and let it be some else's problem.

I bet if you used a welders hammer, or the claw of a regular hammer, to do a tap test front to back along the bottom of the frame you'll punch a lot of holes in the frame.

 

[sjwelds]

That frame is scary. It's literally rusting from the inside out. My opinion, that "gash" in the front of the frame is also rust from the inside out and the previous owner either accidentally put a jack throug it, or purposely bent the edges in to see how bad it was and do a visual inspection. That's probably when he decided to sell it for a song and let it be some else's problem.

I bet if you used a welders hammer, or the claw of a regular hammer, to do a tap test front to back along the bottom of the frame you'll punch a lot of holes in the frame.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Hamfisted]

Yeah, now that I see the pictures I think you're screwed. When you buy a used vehicle, get a Carfax report on it. I wouldn't recommend any vehicle that comes from up north, or has spent it's life running on salted roads. Cut your losses, and go find a southern vehicle.

 

[Al Steel]

Well that sucks. I'm going to tap test the frame a little later, I have a perfect tool for the job. If it's soft, then I'm going to post it up as a parts vehicle.

If it's solid except in those few spots, I'll call my welder friend in PA and see what we can do. If we get into it and it's too much, worst that can happen is I have to list it for parts.

I bought it knowing about the front part of the frame but I must have completely missed the rear somehow, otherwise, I would have passed. The PO put a lot of money into it because it had all new brakes and shocks, plus ends, a new alternator, tires are like 70%. It runs great and shifts smooth. Interior is in good shape, just totally sucks that the frame may have turned into cheese.

 

[Al Steel]

Verdict is in! After careful consideration and deliberation I am... in fact... BONED! I'll let the pictures speak now..

Passenger's Side Rear frame - Notice the complete lack of structural support for the frame crossmember (!)


Driver Side... Not a big gaping hole but the same loss of structural support.



Yeah, that's not getting fixed no matter how good you are with a torch.

As others here suggested I went to work on the frame with a pointy cold steel pick. What I found was that the frame is solid from the front to the rear wheels. Despite hard rapping on all sides up until this rear part, it IS solid. Even at the split on the front driver's side, so I think it was some kind of accident or mishap that tore it open there.

The rear is a totally different story. From the pictures you can see the metal is heavily rusted, soft and thin all the way around the bottom and up 1/3 of the sides. I could easily drive the point of the tool right through the frame on the bottom in some spots. No strength at all. The pax side is paper thin up to about 1/2 way. The bottom side steel is not salvageable and no clean or solid steel to weld to anywhere until well forward, not sure about to the rear. The driver side is the same except the weakness doesn't extend as far front and back as the pax side. I'm not sure if it's even safe to drive because the cross-member that the rear diff bolts to is not even solidly connected to the frame (!). A good hard jolt or collision might actually rip the rear crossmember and diff clean off.

So looks like it's getting listed as a parts vehicle, short of any economical suggestion for a fix. I don't have the money or time to turn this into a project. It's worth noting that this did not happen overnight. This amount of rust through on the frame took YEARS to develop so I'm surprised that the vehicle had a good state inspection (until 9/21 at least). Either the inspector was a friend, was slipped a few bucks to let it pass, or was completely blind. Not sure how you would miss that amount of rust, which I'm sure was only marginally better a year ago.

Well.. live and learn. Look for in the "for sale" if it doesn't get picked up on LetGo. I got 6 good months of use so hopefully I can get a reasonable price. Maybe even as a trade for one of those places that will give you $2K if you can even push it on the lot.

 

[whtbronco]

Well that sucks, sorry to see it turn out this way.

 

[riphip]

That frame is burnt toast!! If you are committed to keeping it, find another around my area where there is little rust but don't go too far south (floods, saltwater, etc). You can find a good body/frame that has a bad motor/tranny that someone will part with cheap. They are out there. You would have better parts to check out also. If Frame looks like that, you are going to have more problems from the same sources.

 

[GlennSullivan]

The frame looks paper thin and already rusted / flaked at the edges of all the openings in the pictures. I agree with other comments that this is a major undertaking.

Cutting out all the bad areas to areas of good metal and filling with new metal, you risk the rails moving distorting (if they are not already)

Plating over the bad areas would be easier and provide some short term increase in safety.

With either method, I think the frame will continue to rust from the inside out and eventually fail.

Also, not much you can do to present the repaired frame to an inspector without him / her seeing the repairs and invoking a super close inspection of the entire underside.

It does appear that a number of auto disassemblers (some in VA) sell full used frames for $500-$600. I would not cut out and replace sections but change the entire frame, which is a large undertaking.

Also some other companies are selling “frame repair kits” saw alot for F150 but not Expy.

 

[kythri]

Just going to chime in with my admittedly not-expert opinion, but that doesn't look like acute "damage" - it looks like rot.

 

[Al Steel]

I agree the rear is totally rotted out. Needs at least a replacement of the rear portion of the frame. The front of the frame looks good except the gash in the front. I've looked around and there are frames to be had. Which begs the question...

Has anyone done a frame swap on an Expy? Is it doable without a full lift or would I need a shop? At best, I might have access to a garage but a shop with a lift, nope. Unless someone here knows of a place near (within 1 hour drive of Leesburg VA) that rents out shop bays. What is involved? Any "gotchas" I should know about?

 

[whtbronco]

This reply is a bit late and maybe too late. I don't know of any area shops that you can rent a bay from, sure would be nice at times though. I've done full body removal on 2 different trucks without a lift, a 94 Ranger which was easy and a 78 Bronco which was not so easy. The Expedition body being long and 1 piece would make it tough I think, but I'm sure you could build a rack to hold the body out of 4x4 lumber. Something like 6 legs, 3-4 cross braces, some 2x4's to keep the legs/braces in place and then some 2x4 blocks to hit the body mounts on the body. Take it lose and then jack it up and slide in one the 4x4 assemblies under the body, move back and do it again until done. That's how I got the body off my Bronco and then rolled the frame out from under it.

Some of my buddies used to use a fork lift which sure made it easier, but I never had access to one.