I have cam phaser issue :(

[Artie]

2018 with only 48000 miles and I'm getting cam phasers and timing chain replaced next week . I've had the cold start tickety-tick noise on and off and while on a road trip to ID last week, the engine light came on. This now very long in the tooth issue with stretched timing chains and cam phasers is a really poor reflection on Ford and their Engineering group. Seriously, there is GOBS of internet traffic regarding this issue going back nearly a decade.... WTF!!

While I thankfully purchased the Premium Care extended warranty (Flood ESP), will get a free loaner, and am only out $100, but I hate having this extent of work done a brand new car. If Ford had to reimburse customers for their time to/from and sitting dealerships, they'd be broke - FLAT BROKE. The job takes 3-4 days primarily because the sealant has to dry that long.

I was told by the service specialist that the replacement parts are a new/improved design, though I haven't been able to find anything on that specifically. Does anyone know whether this is fact or fiction and what exactly has been changed?

I hate this for you!! We have similar aged vehicles, mines a 12/23/17 build date with 30k on the clock and I’m always a little scared To hear the rattle on the first start of the day. So far so good and I pray the day doesn’t come.

As for updated parts... I’ve read the same thing on the blue oval forum and a lot of those guys are ford employees so there should be some truth to it.

Best of luck!

 

[Bill Schell]

I hate this for you!! We have similar aged vehicles, mines a 12/23/17 build date with 30k on the clock and I’m always a little scared To hear the rattle on the first start of the day. So far so good and I pray the day doesn’t come.

As for updated parts... I’ve read the same thing on the blue oval forum and a lot of those guys are ford employees so there should be some truth to it.

Best of luck!

Yeah thanks. I too hope you don't experience the issue but being that it's an inherent design flaw, the odds are high all of owners will. I'd love to know the percentage of 3.5L's that have had the issue - no doubt that is highly protected data.

Certainly use and maintenance factor into it, but unless it is also associated with different component manufacturers of those parts (suspect there might be multiple), one would think virtually all engines are at risk? What is really nuts is Ford Engineering not being able to get this design flaw worked out. It's not as if this issue just surfaced.

I'm going to try and contact Ford and get specifics on whether replacement parts are in fact re-designed; be it dimensionally, material & process, or both. I'll pass along anything I find.

 

[Soliyou]

2018 with only 48000 miles and I'm getting cam phasers and timing chain replaced next week . I've had the cold start tickety-tick noise on and off and while on a road trip to ID last week, the engine light came on. This now very long in the tooth issue with stretched timing chains and cam phasers is a really poor reflection on Ford and their Engineering group. Seriously, there is GOBS of internet traffic regarding this issue going back nearly a decade.... WTF!!

While I thankfully purchased the Premium Care extended warranty (Flood ESP), will get a free loaner, and am only out $100, but I hate having this extent of work done a brand new car. If Ford had to reimburse customers for their time to/from and sitting dealerships, they'd be broke - FLAT BROKE. The job takes 3-4 days primarily because the sealant has to dry that long.

This should be covered by the Powertrain warranty, why do you have to use the ESP??

 

[Bill Schell]

This should be covered by the Powertrain warranty, why do you have to use the ESP??

Yes, it is. The service specialist mentioned that to me. But regardless, Ford Engineering needs to step up their game.

 

[Soliyou]

Yes, it is. The service specialist mentioned that to me. But regardless, Ford Engineering needs to step up their game.

I totally agree! Even if it is covered, I don’t want to open the Engine guts this early!

by the way, this is supposed to be due to plastic locking pin failure and shouldn’t be related to timing chain stretch as gen 1 ecoboost.

 

[DMW1]

I was looking at a used Expedition and it seemed fine when the salesman drove it up to the showroom. I went back a week later to look at the car and this time I was there to hear it cold start. It sounded like a bunch of bolts clanging around in a coffee can for a few seconds then was fine. They would need to discount that car by a few thousand before I would consider it.

 

[Bill Schell]

I was looking at a used Expedition and it seemed fine when the salesman drove it up to the showroom. I went back a week later to look at the car and this time I was there to hear it cold start. It sounded like a bunch of bolts clanging around in a coffee can for a few seconds then was fine. They would need to discount that car by a few thousand before I would consider it.

If it is not under the 60000 powertrain warranty I sure wouldn't buy it. I purchased my 2018 used late last summer along with a Flood ESP Premium Care, 8 year/120k, extended plan. My engine occasionally made a slight ticking noise at first start-up and it lasted a few seconds at most. It wasn't until a road trip a couple weeks ago that the engine light came on, then went off, then came on, then went off again.

Everything I've been reading about this "start-up noise" is that it's "normal" - just something cam phasers do. That sounds like a great party line for "we have a piss poor design and no remedy for it". Mechanical noise like this are internal parts wearing on each other - and not in a normal wear manner. Whether that's from poor design or manufacturing tolerances, poor material choice, or insufficient lubrication, I don't know for sure - and thus far I have been unable to find consistent information on a root cause.

The model 3.5 EB (D35 model) came out in 2017. Clearly they missed the target in resolving what has been a 10+ year issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EcoBoost_engine#3.5_L_(D35;_second_generation)

 

[Bill Schell]

The D35 switched from the Gen 1 single, long chain, to a two chain design. It would stand to reason that would help the "stretched" chain issue... or has it? Perhaps it's still to early (not enough mileage yet) to know whether the number of timing chain and cam phaser faults is less than the pre D35 engine, but early indications are that the design problem has not been corrected.

This is from another forum:

"Ford used a super long single timing chain on the 3.5L Ecoboost. If a 1 meter long chain stretches 1%, then it's stretched 1cm. 1cm is like a full tooth off. If a 1/2 meter chain stretches the same 1%, it is a half tooth off. The auto tensioner for the long chain has to compensate 2X more than a short chain.....

There is a reason the 2.7L Ecoboost has gone to a two chain system. I expect the 3.5L gen 2 Eco will do the same. This isn't an oil problem it is a design problem."

 

[rjdelp7]

The D35 switched from the Gen 1 single, long chain, to a two chain design. It would stand to reason that would help the "stretched" chain issue... or has it? Perhaps it's still to early (not enough mileage yet) to know whether the number of timing chain and cam phaser faults is less than the pre D35 engine, but early indications are that the design problem has not been corrected.

This is from another forum:

"Ford used a super long single timing chain on the 3.5L Ecoboost. If a 1 meter long chain stretches 1%, then it's stretched 1cm. 1cm is like a full tooth off. If a 1/2 meter chain stretches the same 1%, it is a half tooth off. The auto tensioner for the long chain has to compensate 2X more than a short chain.....

There is a reason the 2.7L Ecoboost has gone to a two chain system. I expect the 3.5L gen 2 Eco will do the same. This isn't an oil problem it is a design problem."

The Rolls Royce Merlin V12 aircraft engine, designed in the early 40's uses a shaft drive, not a chain. The problem with Ford timing chains is the tensioner, being run off oil pressure and plastic guides. If the seal fails or engine is low on oil it destroys the guides. The cam phaser noise, being fixed under warranty must be severe or Ford wouldn't fix them. The 'new' 7.3l Godzilla, is not OHC, it's pushrod(aka no phaser or long chains). Has Ford given up on this design? It's possible.

 

[Bill Schell]

Does anyone know if a TSB was ever released 4Q19 as expected? No luck yet getting response back from Ford Customer Service.



My dealership is replacing cam phasers and timing chains. I didn't ask about the VCTs, tensioner, guides, etc.