Slight tranny slip and shudder when putting into gear when cold

[David Smit]

Hi all, and thanks in advance for your thoughts and help.

I recently bought a 2009 Expedition 4x4 with 165k on the clock. For the first four days it was perfect, but of course on day 5 I noticed a slip in the tranny, primarily in gears 3 and 4, and only when I was using low to moderate throttle. The slip seems worse when the truck is still cold.
A few days later I put it into reverse when cold in the morning and the engine shuddered and almost stalled. I put it into drive and it again shuddered. About 30 seconds later it was fine. Every time I put it into gear when it's cold in the morning, it tends to shudder now.

So, not being one to ask questions without trying to research and fix it first, I replaced all the plugs and the coil packs. That wasn't it.
Then I decided to do a half flush on the tranny without dropping the pan. I was able to get about 3.5 quarts out of the tranny, but when I put new Mercon LV in and ran it a few times to get the fluid level right it took 6 quarts to fill! So it was low by 2.5 quarts for who knows how long (I does have a very minor looking seep at the rear of the pan). The slipping and shudder still happen, though I suspect they're not as bad as before.

At this point I'm thinking I'll have to get the transmission rebuilt or get one with low miles from a salvage yard and have them swapped. I do have to get the PCM totally reprogrammed because I had both oxygen sensor codes come up simultaneously, which is a known software fault (when it rains it pours, right?). I know this will also reset the transmission programming, so I'll wait for that before I do anything drastic in hopes it may solve the problem, but I highly doubt it.

In the meantime, who can help me? I've seen the shudder problem among f150 threads, but their symptoms don't seem to be the same as mine. I'm wondering if it may be a torque converter issue?

 

[1955moose]

If in fact you were 3 quarts down, you could very likely have burned a clutch pack. Or messed up inside the torque converter. If it's not a bad slip, you might want to just put up with it for now. Is there any warranty at all? Or was purchase from private party? The torque convertors shuddering is a very common deal on 6r75l80 tranny's. We had a recent poster that added an additive to his fluid, that made the shudder stop. It was a few days ago. Lv should be the right fluid. I know some of the earlier ones took SP, maybe one of owners of newer ones can confirm that. If you want to purge the rest out safely, you can crack a line at trans cooler. With that high of mileage flushing might be risky. Ironically around 150k is where Ford recommended first service.

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[David Smit]

That's my worry too Moose; being low by 2.5 quarts on a 7 quart system is indeed far from ideal. My intention was to actually only pull out 3.5 quarts and do a half flush because of the higher miles, it just so happened that all I could get out was 3.5 quarts and now that 6 went back in, I've effectively done an almost full flush. Is what it is at this point. I was debating a friction modifier myself and may try it yet. Any chance you might be able to point me in the direction of that post you mentioned?

I will say, from what I read, just about all the shudder problems I can find on the 6r80 tranny involve shudders when the vehicle is up to operating temp and at speed. Mine is the opposite, so it doesn't seem related.

You are correct that the earlier 3rd gen Expeditions took SP... my dipstick recommends it. They moved to LV and the two can safely be intermixed per a Ford bulletin I found. I was hoping the change to the LV would in effect act as a friction modifier in and of itself, but no dice.

Thanks sir

 

[bobmbx]

It’s probably a damaged TC due to low fluid (got too hot).

That's my worry too Moose; being low by 2.5 quarts on a 7 quart system is indeed far from ideal. My intention was to actually only pull out 3.5 quarts and do a half flush because of the higher miles, it just so happened that all I could get out was 3.5 quarts and now that 6 went back in, I've effectively done an almost full flush. Is what it is at this point. I was debating a friction modifier myself and may try it yet. Any chance you might be able to point me in the direction of that post you mentioned?

I will say, from what I read, just about all the shudder problems I can find on the 6r80 tranny involve shudders when the vehicle is up to operating temp and at speed. Mine is the opposite, so it doesn't seem related.

You are correct that the earlier 3rd gen Expeditions took SP... my dipstick recommends it. They moved to LV and the two can safely be intermixed per a Ford bulletin I found. I was hoping the change to the LV would in effect act as a friction modifier in and of itself, but no dice.

Thanks sir

Do yourself a favor and never use a tranny fluid type that isn't specified for your tranny. If the Owners manual says "SP", don't put anything but SP in it. Its possible a previous owner put the wrong fluid in it, having trusted someone who said "no, really, LV is fine for SP tranny". Even with that Ford bulletin in mind, don't do it.

 

[JExpedition07]

Ford rescinded that bulliten. Ford discontinued Mercon SP and stated LV superseded it for a short duration. Then many owners had dealer flushes and fluid changes done and ran into issues and ford had to pay for transmission replacements. They found LV could damage SP equipped transmissions. Ford brought back SP and keeps dealer shelves stocked with it. If your dipstick says Mercon SP no other fluid should be used. I thought by 2009 LV was recommended though.

 

[1955moose]

David the stuff he used was called lube gard instant shudder fix. Advanced Auto sells it. Personally I never like throwing in any kind of additives in tranny's, but he claimed it helps. By the way, Including torque converter, pan, trans cooler, your SUV carries over 13 quarts of fluid. So 2 1/2 quarts down doesn't seem bad, but running a long time low like that can build up extra heat in there. Try the anti shudder stuff, let us know if it helps.

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[David Smit]

Huh, well that's not confusing then, lol. I too was very much under the impression that even the dealer would have put LV in there instead of SP because SP had been phased out. At this point I'm not going to do a system flush; if 6 quarts of fresh LV made very little difference I have no reason to believe that doing a full flush with SP would all of a sudden fix the issue when SP and LV are apparently so similar as to be cross compatible (if even only for a while).
I ordered a tube of the shudder guard. I put that stuff in a Yukon once that had a slip and it went another year without slipping again before I sold it, so it certainly works. I did a search for "expedition" under the Amazon reviews and it pulled a bunch of reviews for how well it worked on the 2nd gen Expeditions, but only one 3rd gen was mentioned. That does give me hope however.
The problem isn't currently bad enough that I'm willing to spend much money on it... I just let it run for 30 seconds when it's overnight cold before putting it in gear and it's fine. The slips are minor and relative to when I first felt it a week ago, have not gotten worse; in fact they may be a bit better since putting in the LV. Fingers crossed.

I will certainly follow up after I put in the friction modifier.

Thanks all.

 

[David Smit]

One other thought Moose... that's good info on the 13 quart capacity; somewhere I read that it was 7, but 13 seems more likely to me. What's interesting is that the dip stick in the pan (that goes close to the bottom of the pan mind you) registered NOTHING while idling when it was only 2 quarts low (after putting an extra half quart in). That tells me that if it was 2.5 quarts low in total, there's a good chance it sucked up air occasionally, especially while on an incline or decline. I bought the vehicle from a guy who lives in the mountains, so I fear there's likely to be some damage, I just hope it's not something that gradually gets worse.

You'd think there'd be a check engine light or a warning of sorts if the fluid pressure drops in the tranny (like with oil), but I suspect in all actuality there's very well may not be. Same for excessive heat buildup. Any idea?

 

[1955moose]

No unfortunately since all American manufactures building automatic transmissions since 1942, no one ever has put a simple oil level gauge on dash, or light for an automatic transmission. Makes no sense why, as all automatic tranny's use pressure just like an engine. Most are 25-40 psi measured through a side port on trans. The 7 quarts your speaking of is just what's in the pan. I just last month drained my pan and torque converter on my 4r100, and I put back in 12 qts of Mercon v. If I had drained the trans cooler, I would expect another quart or two. Your 6 speed is tougher to drain, as theirs no drain on pan or torque converter like mine. Your right in leaving it be, then maybe drain some more out in a few months, through cooler line. Theirs videos online to show you how.


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[poppie]

Who ever at Ford can up with that pain in the xyz hair brained idea of putting the trans dipstick UNDER the truck below the passenger side seat need's a PINK slip and be shown the door, there are still some of us OLD guys who don't wear earrings or have PINK hair that still do our own maintenance as much as possible and like to check the fluid levels ourselves even though now days with no tans converter plug to get a total drain mine goes to the dealer for flushing the trans every 30,000 miles weather it need's it or not and an engine oil change ever 5000 miles that I still do myself at age 72 cause I like too, BTW, what's the consensuses on here of going from 5W/20 To 5W/30 Motor craft oil now that I'm getting close to 120,000 miles on my 07 Expedition and also at what mileage did you guy's change spark plugs,I'm still getting 19 MPG up here with the original plug's in the Winter in the far North Woods of Wisconsin, still starts at the click of the key & runs like a sewing machine, with out a doubt the best trouble free vehicle I've ever owned and I bought it CPO at 6 months of age with 14,000 miles.