Top Tier Gas

[Craigga542]

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Not sure I follow you here, but let me explain. Facts are facts and should trump all, but studies are not always completed correctly nor are there multiple studies on everything I want facts on, let alone a study at all. Hence, opinions with experience behind them do matter in many cases.

As far as the 30 cents and worth discussing, this is where facts come into play. I’m a numbers guys. Random example, 30 cents savings over X miles equates to $$ savings. If that savings was the cause for fouling spark plugs, valves, blowing an engine, etc., is it worth the risk and/or savings? Only the vehicle owner can decide, but that’s my angle through this post.

 

[jwas1]

Have a question on a highly debatable subject here, so I’m going to ask my question and then set some ground rules. I don’t care for the nonsense arguments, I mostly like facts over opinions.

Question: Is there any discernible and/or research evidence of less reliability, significant buildup, or performance issues from anything less than top tier gas specifically related to this generation EB?

1. I’m not looking for any debate on brands, strictly top tier vs not.
2. Not looking for anything related to octane or ethanol.
3. The gas I’m referring to is Sam’s Club vs QuikTrip, advertised tier 1 vs not.
4. There is typically 30 cents or more per gallon difference, so worth discussing in my book.
5. Again, specifically looking for any evidence on the gen 2 EB.
6. I likely won’t own this Expy post 80-100k miles, but I want reliability until then.

I have had the same Ford service manager for 20+ years. He has consistently recommended top tier gas for our Expys. We keep them well past 120,000 miles and have had no problems.

 

[NorthGeorgia]

Maybe I missed it but I see that PILOT, FLYING J and LOVE'S are NOT listed as Tier One gasoline distributors? On the Interstate that is what one see's mostly.... in the South, and going up to the MidWest.

 

[Frank Swygert]

From a fuel truck driver: It all comes from the same pipeline. There are water plugs between refinery deliveries, so it is separated. The "no name" gas comes from many of the SAME refineries as top tier. The difference is the additive packages. Most of the gas has the additive package added at the delivery point -- usually into the truck so it mixes as it's driven. The "no name" usually doesn't get an additional additive package, it's just plain gas!

As noted, you can buy a fuel system cleaner additive every 2-3 tanks (no need for every tank, but you can -- it might be cheaper than just getting a better brand...) and have about the same thing. Most of the oil companies only advertise the "better cleaning" and such for their mid grade and premium fuels (some just premium), indicating that regular has no additional additives -- should be the same as you get at the no-name stores. I'd add a good cleaner (like Lucas or SeaFoam) every third or fourth tank rather than use premium, but that's just me. I usually use a cleaner once a year -- if I remember to do it. So sometimes it's a bit longer. Never really had any fuel related issues -- this is in other vehicles as well as my 2005 Expy, which I've only had about 18 months now. Used a fuel cleaner in it shortly after I got it, no more since... it's about time...

My "long term" car is a 1963 Rambler Classic wagon with a hopped up Jeep 4.0L EFI engine in it -- built it in 2003. So every couple years I run fuel system/injector cleaner in it. Only average maybe 3K a year in it anymore. Averaged about 6K when I was driving it daily, 2003-2007.

 

[2018ExpyPlatinum]

rjdelp7 is correct. Again, I pulled fuel in Northern Virginia (NOVA). Any additive was added at the terminal via separate small tank. Funny, never saw anyone fill those tanks. Anyway, the gas and diesel all came up the colonial pipeline from Texas or Louisiana. It would then go to multiple terminals to their storage tanks. We and other fuel haulers would buy our allocation and it went into the same storage tank (gas is gas). So, again, multiple companies all put their gas into the SAME storage tank (gas is gas).

Remember, the additive amount is so small, it's not really a topic of conversation, and can't really make that much difference. It's only about half a percent, which isn't even a ounce per gallon. We pulled gas for marathon, speedway, valero, pilot/flying j, sunoco. Guys next to me pulled gas for costco, bp, quarles, sheetz, shell, love's. It all came out of the same 2+ million gallon tanks. IF an additive was added just for shell, it would be at the terminal.

Oh, and don't forget, there's a little gas in your diesel, and a little diesel in your gas. Gas is gas. Best advice...buy from a high volume store.

 

[2018ExpyPlatinum]

Maybe I missed it but I see that PILOT, FLYING J and LOVE'S are NOT listed as Tier One gasoline distributors? On the Interstate that is what one see's mostly.... in the South, and going up to the MidWest.

Maybe not on the list, but I think it is.......again, gas is gas.

 

[LG_123]

In Canada, I go to Shell since their 91 octane has 0 ethanol. I've found about a 10% increase in fuel economy under normal driving conditions and 15% improvement when towing heavy loads.

 

[LokiWolf]

In Canada, I go to Shell since their 91 octane has 0 ethanol. I've found about a 10% increase in fuel economy under normal driving conditions and 15% improvement when towing heavy loads.

And a loss of power. Ethanol is GOOD for Turbo Motors.


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[Fozzy]

And a loss of power. Ethanol is GOOD for Turbo Motors.


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My Ecoboost and boat both hated ethanol free fuel. But I should have know better since E85 is the rage with the HP crowed right now.


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[LokiWolf]

My Ecoboost and boat both hated ethanol free fuel. But I should have know better since E85 is the rage with the HP crowed right now.


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It is SO Much fun when tuned for it!

Heck, his increase in Fuel Mileage could be more about the Octane increase than the lack of Ethanol.


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[rjdelp7]

In Canada, I go to Shell since their 91 octane has 0 ethanol. I've found about a 10% increase in fuel economy under normal driving conditions and 15% improvement when towing heavy loads.

He said 10% increase on 91/0% ethanol, plus better towing. The Ecoboost can use E10, that's 10% max, not E85. I would say 'ethanol is bad for turbos', according to Ford engineers. But, hey what do they know...

 

[LokiWolf]

He said 10% increase on 91/0% ethanol, plus better towing. The Ecoboost can use E10, that's 10% max, not E85. I would say 'ethanol is bad for turbos', according to Ford engineers. But, hey what do they know...

Again, you are wrong. Dude, we have had this conversation SO many times. When is it going to actually sink in to your head.

The limitation of amount of E85 is based on tuning and fuel pump capacity. Stock tuning is designed to handle up to about E20 with out issues. The manual actually says a max of E15, because some localities can have that much in Pump gas. In VA it is E10. Tested it many times.

The stock Pump can handle E50 on aftermarket tuning, but beyond that there will be no gains, because the stock pump can’t flow fast enough to meet the demand.

Yes, higher you go in Ethanol, the lower your MPG’s will go.

The person above that said they saw a 10% increase in MPG, due to running Ethanol free is not the whole picture. He went from 87 with most likely 10% E to 91 with out. It has been proven many times, that just increasing Octane on stock tuning will improve MPG on an Ecoboost. So yes, the lack of Ethanol might have increased MPG because of Energy density, the increase in Octane did also.

The 10% increase was NOT just because of the removal of Ethanol. That was my point.

Ethanol prevents the pulling of timing by 2 methods, it’s increase in Octane and cooling. It has been proven by MANY people that Turbo motors respond REALLY well to increases Ethanol levels when tuned for it. Even on stock tuning, you will see an improvement in power on E10 vs E0 octane the same for both.




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[rjdelp7]

Again, you are wrong. Dude, we have had this conversation SO many times. When is it going to actually sink in to your head.

The limitation of amount of E85 is based on tuning and fuel pump capacity. Stock tuning is designed to handle up to about E20 with out issues. The manual actually says a max of E15, because some localities can have that much in Pump gas. In VA it is E10. Tested it many times.

The stock Pump can handle E50 on aftermarket tuning, but beyond that there will be no gains, because the stock pump can’t flow fast enough to meet the demand.

Yes, higher you go in Ethanol, the lower your MPG’s will go.

The person above that said they saw a 10% increase in MPG, due to running Ethanol free is not the whole picture. He went from 87 with most likely 10% E to 91 with out. It has been proven many times, that just increasing Octane on stock tuning will improve MPG on an Ecoboost. So yes, the lack of Ethanol might have increased MPG because of Energy density, the increase in Octane did also.

The 10% increase was NOT just because of the removal of Ethanol. That was my point.

Ethanol prevents the pulling of timing by 2 methods, it’s increase in Octane and cooling. It has been proven by MANY people that Turbo motors respond REALLY well to increases Ethanol levels when tuned for it. Even on stock tuning, you will see an improvement in power on E10 vs E0 octane the same for both.




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Ethanol free has 'more gasoline content'. Gasoline has more energy content. Most stations with E0 are 90 or 91 octane. In the north, were it's cold half the year, motors don't run better(they run rich). Ethanol absorbs moisture. Compressed air gets hot(aka turbo boost)also absorbs moisture. Water and engines don't mix. Read your owners manual. This is a street vehicle not a Street Outlaw race car. Your theory may make sense on a race car but not a stock Expedition.

 

[LokiWolf]

Ethanol free has 'more gasoline content'. Gasoline has more energy content. Most stations with E0 are 90 or 91 octane. In the north, were it's cold half the year, motors don't run better(they run rich). Ethanol absorbs moisture. Compressed air gets hot(aka turbo boost)also absorbs moisture. Water and engines don't mix. Read your owners manual. This is a street vehicle not a Street Outlaw race car. Your theory may make sense on a race car but not a stock Expedition.

Just keep typing...you just prove your lack of knowledge on Modern engines every time you post.

Not to mention your complete lack of understanding of Chemistry, and the differences in how the fuels burn. You make so many incorrect assumptions it isn’t even worth my time anymore. Have a nice day.


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[rjdelp7]

Just keep typing...you just prove your lack of knowledge on Modern engines every time you post.

Not to mention your complete lack of understanding of Chemistry, and the differences in how the fuels burn. You make so many incorrect assumptions it isn’t even worth my time anymore. Have a nice day.


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Stop giving bad advice and outrages claims that may damage owners vehicles on this forum... based on your facts

 

[LokiWolf]

Stop giving bad advice and outrages claims that may damage owners vehicles on this forum... based on your facts

WHAT!?!? Give me one example of anything I have recommended that has damaged any owners vehicles on this forum or others. I don't make my statements from reading the internet like you do. I was REALLY trying to not get in to it with you again, but claiming I have said anything that could damage somebodies vehicle is COMPLETE CRAP!

Every single one of my "outrageous claims" is from actual experience, logging and tuning on now 5 EcoBoost Powered Fords I have owned. One of which ran on E30 and above for over a year, 8 months of that on E70. That was my 16 Edge Sport. It had a completely stock fuel system.

I ran the 17 Expedition several times on E30, and am now running my 2020 Explorer ST on E50 Daily, for 3 months with over 3000 miles on the Odometer. 2000+ of that on E50. The Expeditions have not run on Ethanol as much as my daily driver, only because the E85 equipped Station is less convenient for my Wife than her Kroger(Where we get points).

5Star(Sponsor on this Forum), Livernois Motor Sports, and MANY other tuners sell tunes for EB Expeditions(15+) to run on various Ethanol Mixes(E30 & E50), with completely stock components. 5Star will do a full aftermarket warranty with theirs. Would they do that, if running higher than E15 was going to damage the vehicle?

PLEASE go back to the dark ages. You have NO CLUE on what can and can't run in these motors.

 

[rjdelp7]

WHAT!?!? Give me one example of anything I have recommended that has damaged any owners vehicles on this forum or others. I don't make my statements from reading the internet like you do. I was REALLY trying to not get in to it with you again, but claiming I have said anything that could damage somebodies vehicle is COMPLETE CRAP!

Every single one of my "outrageous claims" is from actual experience, logging and tuning on now 5 EcoBoost Powered Fords I have owned. One of which ran on E30 and above for over a year, 8 months of that on E70. That was my 16 Edge Sport. It had a completely stock fuel system.

I ran the 17 Expedition several times on E30, and am now running my 2020 Explorer ST on E50 Daily, for 3 months with over 3000 miles on the Odometer. 2000+ of that on E50. The Expeditions have not run on Ethanol as much as my daily driver, only because the E85 equipped Station is less convenient for my Wife than her Kroger(Where we get points).

5Star(Sponsor on this Forum), Livernois Motor Sports, and MANY other tuners sell tunes for EB Expeditions(15+) to run on various Ethanol Mixes(E30 & E50), with completely stock components. 5Star will do a full aftermarket warranty with theirs. Would they do that, if running higher than E15 was going to damage the vehicle?

PLEASE go back to the dark ages. You have NO CLUE on what can and can't run in these motors.

I rest my case. NO Proof. Just empty claims. Does 'super Explorer' take E85? Or are you gambling it's OK running on E30(I have never seen it at a pump). 5Star or Livernois could care less if you ruin your engine. They knowingly void factory warranties.

 

[LokiWolf]

I rest my case. NO Proof. Just empty claims. Does 'super Explorer' take E85? Or are you gambling it's OK running on E30(I have never seen it at a pump). 5Star or Livernois could care less if you ruin your engine. They knowingly void factory warranties.

HAHA! Keep going. No Clue. 5Star offers a FULL aftermarket warranty to cover things if Ford does not. I am in no way a 5Star fan, but they are fairly common tuner out there.

It is not a Super Explorer, just a 2020 ST running a Great tuner's E50 tune. E50 and E30 are gotten from mixing E85 with 93, and doing Math(there is an app for that).

 

[Flexpedition]

Not sure I follow you here, but let me explain. Facts are facts and should trump all, but studies are not always completed correctly nor are there multiple studies on everything I want facts on, let alone a study at all. Hence, opinions with experience behind them do matter in many cases.

As far as the 30 cents and worth discussing, this is where facts come into play. I’m a numbers guys. Random example, 30 cents savings over X miles equates to $$ savings. If that savings was the cause for fouling spark plugs, valves, blowing an engine, etc., is it worth the risk and/or savings? Only the vehicle owner can decide, but that’s my angle through this post.

Where in KS are you where Top Tier gas (ie: QT, Shell, Phillips 66, Valero, etc) is $0.30 MORE a gallon than its non Top Tier equivalent? I spent some time on Gas Buddy looking at high/low prices in Kansas City and Wichita. There just simply isn't a 30 cents per gallon price difference anywhere in Kansas, or anywhere in America. Maybe you meant 30 cents a tank? Even then I find it hard to believe, as often the low-price leader IS in fact Top Tier. Locally QT is the lowest, at 2 cents/gallon lower than non-Top Tier competitor.

I think you are possibly confusing Top Tier with Ethanol free, or Top Tier with E85 for Flex Fuel use. Something is definitely amiss.

 

[Silver007]

The add pack makes the fuel difference, just like with motor oil. They can be very different but you probably won't ever notice, just like with oil. I've got a vehicle that pings less and gets about 2 mpg better on QT from a new station in the area. Such differences may not be evident with another vehicle. Yeah, "gas is gas" until the add pack.