Ignoring the tongue weight (max cargo/payload)?

[audiodane]

Hi folks. Bought a 2014 Expy EL w/ HD Tow Package recently.. Super excited. Been researching for a few months now various campers, and all the math that goes along with it. Want something large enough for the family (three kids plus foster children and/or friends as they are with us), so we're looking for something that sleeps 7-10 folks. That's a big rig. I better do my math right!

I am seeing most folks here talk about the max tongue weight, but not really consider the max payload/cargo limits on the driver door tire label. I'm curious if I'm the one missing something, or most everyone else?

As I see it:

With WDH, I can have a max tongue weight of 890lbs. But regardless, I have a max payload "not to exceed 1433lbs" on my driver door tire label. With driver (200), wife and three kids (475), weekend luggage (200), hitch (50), that max payload drops precipitously to (1433-200-475-200-50=) 508lbs. I no longer have an 890 lb tongue limit. I have a 508 lb tongue limit! With a 10-15% tongue weight ratio, my max loaded trailer weight has dropped to between 3,386 - 5,080 lbs!

If I decide to move the luggage weight from the Expy into the trailer, though, I can reduce that 200lbs by 85% to just ~30lbs of hitch weight. Now, with just driver, humans, and hitch, my tongue limit raises to 708lbs, which brings me back up to a max loaded trailer weight of 4,720 - 7,080 lbs.

This is STILL a far cry from the 890 lbs tongue weight that I see most folks discussing.

So, am I wrong? Or is this something that most folks are overlooking when talking about travel trailers?

cheers,
..dane

ps.- I'm assuming that the tire label specified max cargo rating already accounts for a full tank of gas? If that's an incorrect assumption, then oiy! That tongue weight needs to go WAY back down!

 

[Casflynn]

I spend what seemed like months figuring this out. Ignore the door to a certain extend. I can’t stress this enough.... Go weight your rig at a cat scale (get the app, super easy) with you, the kids, full gas (tank is over the rear axle which sucks), and any gear you will have when towing ( which needs to as little as humanly possible). My number was 6400lbs, but more importantly it was 3200 front and 3200 rear, so I had 1100lbs left after me, wife, 2 kids in car seats, dog, full tank. I bought a 6000lb gvw trailer with a dry weight of 4500ish pounds, factory tongue of 660. Real world tongue ( propane, battery’s, Hensley hitch, cargo, etc) was close to 900lbs. So after all that, I’m close to the 7500 gvw of the truck and the rear axle of 4300lbs. Cat scale is your friend. See my post from a few weeks ago on my weights. Good luck

My personal two cents, this mainly applies to non el, 6000lb trailer under 28ft hitch to bumper( gotta watch how these travel companies decode their campers, ie a 28bhs jayco might be 30ft tip to tip)

Happy to help you with this as I have spent months and many late hours trying to dial mine in


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[audiodane]

Hi @Casflynn,

Thanks so much for that feedback. I have registered for CAT and found there is a scale within about 30 minutes of my home. I'll probably go do this tomorrow, as it sounds like this will certainly make calculation MUCH easier.

How did you know that your weight was evenly distributed on your axles? I've never done anything like this before. Are these places designed for folks who "know what they're doing," or are there fairly well-posted instructions? The app makes it sound like I literally just drive onto a plate, open the app and hit the posted number, click "accept" and when it says it's done, put 'er in drive and head home and check my email...

cheers,
..dane

 

[Casflynn]

Exactly what you do, app is stupid easy. The scale is simple, there are 3 “plates”, one for each axle. So for a semi there are two plates up front, and a big one for the trailer, just drive onto the front two plates and put the middle of your rig over the line. Once you get there it will make sense, it’s easy. Should be $11.50. It’s also super level, so after the app gets your weight, hop out and measure from the ground to your fenders to get your baseline heights to help adjust your hitch


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[audiodane]

cool. thanks! will report back my findings...

 

[audiodane]

Got weighed this morning.. Fun, never done that before ... and yes, totally stupid easy! All family in the car, full tank of gas, 50lb bag of concrete in the back to simulate the hitch (we don't have one yet). Here's what came up with.

Vehicle specs:

• 2014 Expedition EL
• 5.4L, w/ HD Tow Package (3.73 axle ratio)
• Wheelbase 131" (11')
• Length 221" (18.5')
• 7540 lbs = GVWR
• 4250 lbs = RGAWR
• 15,000 lbs = GCWR

Vehicle weights

• 3200 lbs = Front axle
  
• 3500 lbs = Back axle
• 6700 lbs = Total actual

(I was surprised that they were all such nice round numbers... do they round??)

So if I understand it correctly..

GVWR - Total actual= 840lbs
RGAWR - back axle = 750lbs
GCWR - Total actual = 8,300lbs

SO, questions:

1. If I don't use a WDH, I am limited to 750lbs, yes? (granted that may dip the back end too much, this is just for numbers sake)
   
2. If I do use a WDH, I can go to 840lbs as long as the individual axles aren't over their respective limits?
   
3. This is likely a hotly debated topic- but are these limits already taking safety margins into account? e.g. do I need to derate everything 10-20%, or do manufacturers already perform testing to some degree beyond these limits so that these are valid upper limits?

If I assume the latter (going up to the limits is okay) then with a fully balanced load it looks like I can pull a fully loaded trailer (10-15% tongue weight) between GTWR 5,600lbs - 8,400lbs. (Note: limited to 8,300lbs upper limit due to GCWR.)

If I assume the former (derate the 840lb WDH limit to 670lb), then I'm looking at a GTWR of 4,466lbs - 6,700lbs -- drastically reducing the options available. (Most plans that sleep 6 are in the GTWR range of 7,500lbs.)

Also, @Casflynn, where did you get your spreadsheet from on your other thread?

OK, last question for now.... Length....

I have read from some folks that length matters tremendously while traveling (and of course when navigating back into the campsite); that the longer you are, the more likely you are to sway and loose control and even tip. Others say length really doesn't matter, but that the entire discussion is around and about weight..

We have an Expedition EL.. we're already 18' long. Is pulling something with a total/exterior length longer than 30' a bad idea? Or do I need to stick with something with a total exterior length under 30' with this vehicle? And is this recommendation just based upon empirical personal experience, or some other guidance/rule-of-thumb that I have yet to find?

cheers,
..dane

 

[Casflynn]

1) Weight, yes you have 840 pounds “left”. Don’t even think about not using a WDH, too many reasons to list why you have to. SOME of the weight from the tongue will get transferred to the front axle and the trailer axle. I’m over my rear axle weight without WD, under by a few hundred with it. My two cents, 900lbs max tongue weight loaded is your goal, which is going to very hard to gauge as each manufacturer dry weights are different, shoot for a 600 to 700 dry tongue.

2) I know you want to buy a double slide 30 some ft bunkhouse, we all do, but even your wheelbase of 131 is still a foot shorter than a normal half ton truck which is normally around 145. 30ft is long for a 131 wheelbase. Lots of other factors come into play, trailer suspension, your towing experience, type of roads, etc.... I’m a huge point projection hitch guy (Hensley, propride) they just plain work, but each there own

3) I’ll find the link to the spreadsheet and share it


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[Casflynn]

And for the record, I’m not in the “ the manufactures numbers are conservative” category. I refuse to go over weights if all possible, especially with an independent rear end and my family in the car. Couple pounds over in a good half ton or 3/4 ton truck? I could live with that, maybe.

I think my expedition and others tow very well for what they are, but they are still a compromise and not a truck in a towing situation

And tires, get good ones, LT or P metric XL rating, learn about pressures (whole other can of worms)

And brakes, good ones, I really like the ford/motor craft severe duty “blue” pads. Ford oem rotors are also high quality compared to aftermarket options.


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[Casflynn]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/och5g6y4dsn6ce3/Truck and Trailer Weights Calculator Template.xlsx?dl=0


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[audiodane]

re: "manfacturers are conservatives" category .... totally agree. But you are in the camp of "max load is OK" by saying I can use up to that total 840lb (~900lb) limit.. There is another camp that says "derate the max load because max is unsafe." I know there is a lot of debate between those three camps...

thanks for your spreadsheet link! I will start filling it in.

re: length; is there any sort of rule of thumb for length limits based upon wheelbase or whatever else? I can't find any. Just folks saying, like you, "go short." And others saying, "meh, length is just fine" (including the local RV salesperson I spoke with near the CAT station this morning since I was in the area)..

re: tires; we bought our Expy used back in August in prep for a camper (when we quickly realized our Odyssey wasn't quite up to the task of a travel trailer- heh heh heh).. we will be due for tires soon.. I normally use TireRack.com; but if you have links regarding pressures, and the ratings you recommend and why, I would be happy to start learning that stuff too, once we have the camper nailed down..

re: brake pads; awesome- thanks! we are due for those soon also. will likely pair those with the tires and get a full service around thanksgiving..

cheers,
..dane