87 vs 89 vs 93 octane - my findings

[JExpedition07]

Loki and I are definitely not “way out in left field”. We are supplying you with information on modern transmissions and how/why they improve MPG in various conditions. Whether you choose to believe or not is up to you, but Ford engineers def aren’t on your side lol. Do you know what the torque converter clutch does? I’m sure you do. It locks up the engine/transmission into direct drive and reduces slush-box and hydraulic fluid power losses. A torque converter is like a fan blowing on another fan that is off, lock up the clutch and it’s like turning the second fan on (albeit same rotation). It saves fuel and reduces parasitic drivetrain loss. Having the ability to lock up in direct drive in all forward gears (something that started on the 6R60) saves gas because it reduces those drivetrain losses. It closes the gap between automatics and manuals. Having more gears means a better ratio for a given situation. Having more overdrives gives you more freeway efficiency and lower engine revs.

 

[07navi]

Loki and I are definitely not “way out in left field”. We are supplying you with information on modern transmissions and how/why they improve MPG in various conditions. Whether you choose to believe or not is up to you, but Ford engineers def aren’t on your side lol. Do you know what the torque converter clutch does? I’m sure you do. It locks up the engine/transmission into direct drive and reduces slush-box and hydraulic fluid power losses. A torque converter is like a fan blowing on another fan that is off, lock up the clutch and it’s like turning the second fan on (albeit same rotation). It saves fuel and reduces parasitic drivetrain loss. Having the ability to lock up in direct drive in all forward gears (something that started on the 6R60) saves gas because it reduces those drivetrain losses. It closes the gap between automatics and manuals. Having more gears means a better ratio for a given situation. Having more overdrives gives you more freeway efficiency and lower engine revs.

I specialized in rebuilding auto trans for 10 years when I was a mechanic so go whine to someone else. Your statement about how you get 20 mpg all the time because of your 6 speeds and double overdrive is one of the dumbest statements ever.

 

[LokiWolf]

I specialized in rebuilding auto trans for 10 years when I was a mechanic so go whine to someone else. Your statement about how you get 20 mpg all the time because of your 6 speeds and double overdrive is one of the dumbest statements ever.

I respect your knowledge of the working and insides of a transmission. I have only rebuilt manuals, and most of those were for Spec Miata’s.

Not really a stupid statement. The additional speeds and Overdrive DO have a factor on MPG. Giving him a hard time for that is BY FAR worse. The real, to use your own words, “dumbest statement ever” is the statement that “the only thing that matters for MPG is Final Drive Ratio”.

Man you are dense. Neither of us are saying that final Drive ratio isn’t important, actually quite the opposite. Drive ratio is, along with many other factors.


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[07navi]

I respect your knowledge of the working and insides of a transmission. I have only rebuilt manuals, and most of those were for Spec Miata’s.

Not really a stupid statement. The additional speeds and Overdrive DO have a factor on MPG. Giving him a hard time for that is BY FAR worse. The real, to use your own words, “dumbest statement ever” is the statement that “the only thing that matters for MPG is Final Drive Ratio”.

Man you are dense. Neither of us are saying that final Drive ratio isn’t important, actually quite the opposite. Drive ratio is, along with many other factors.


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Yea, really dense. You 2 make a good pair...............lol

Graduating from 3 mechanic training schools, 10 years as a transmission (mainly) mechanic, and 15 years of drag racing all made me dense.............

 

[sjwelds]

Yea, really dense. You 2 make a good pair...............lol

Still here I see.

Too bad you're not still rebuilding transmissions. Then maybe you'd be too busy to bother us.

 

[scotthere]

Wow. This was a riveting read. Mostly because everyone was, I think, correct based on their perspective. so if your perspective is that at a given speed gas mileage is everything to do with final gear ratio your claim would likely be agreed upon. If your perspective is that it is not possible to discuss a topic in theoretical terms and that all real world factors must be considered to discus a concept then you might be correct refuting the statement. BTW it is best not to use absolute words Like everything, nothing, never etc. in technical discussions. (notice I didn't say "never use"?)

Anyway, you guys seem knowledgeable so, I'm just shopping for a low mileage expedition to replace the wife's/Families 04 Escalade @ near 200K miles and dated technology. I read in some discussion that the Limited and Platinum Have the tow package. Does that mean that they have 3.73 rear end and bigger radiator and Trans. cooler or that they have the actual package with all the other gizmos? According to the 2019 Order Guide is an option except with special edition and blackout package. Trailer people like Black? Wait, that's why the tow package on the Black-out those with blackout are hiding something so when they run from the cops they can bring all their stolen booty in their trailer. I live south so better cooling is a significant plus. I like the limited with 302A for the tech but add that and hd tow and might as well buy a optionless Platinum. So what's the real deal with tow?

Last, Why can't I get CCD with 20 inch wheels or 18's for that matter? CCD + non-low profile tires = comfort and smooth ride. Is ford in cahoots with the tire Co's to sell more expensive tires? CCD is not a stand alone option anywhere you have to get it with 22's I'm not going to try the twisty's in the EXPY that is what the 550i is for. EXPY's are for comfort and volume. Is there an advantage to Low profile other than twisty performance? Breaking? I don't think so, that is all about surface contact. Wait, not all but mostly, I forgot hardness, temperature and? That's it Breaking! adding extra weight in the 22 inch wheels and tires causes wheel hop in extreme breaking so CDD is added to compensate.

 

[07navi]

Wow. This was a riveting read. Mostly because everyone was, I think, correct based on their perspective. so if your perspective is that at a given speed gas mileage is everything to do with final gear ratio your claim would likely be agreed upon. If your perspective is that it is not possible to discuss a topic in theoretical terms and that all real world factors must be considered to discus a concept then you might be correct refuting the statement. BTW it is best not to use absolute words Like everything, nothing, never etc. in technical discussions. (notice I didn't say "never use"?)

Anyway, you guys seem knowledgeable so, I'm just shopping for a low mileage expedition to replace the wife's/Families 04 Escalade @ near 200K miles and dated technology. I read in some discussion that the Limited and Platinum Have the tow package. Does that mean that they have 3.73 rear end and bigger radiator and Trans. cooler or that they have the actual package with all the other gizmos? According to the 2019 Order Guide is an option except with special edition and blackout package. Trailer people like Black? Wait, that's why the tow package on the Black-out those with blackout are hiding something so when they run from the cops they can bring all their stolen booty in their trailer. I live south so better cooling is a significant plus. I like the limited with 302A for the tech but add that and hd tow and might as well buy a optionless Platinum. So what's the real deal with tow?

Last, Why can't I get CCD with 20 inch wheels or 18's for that matter? CCD + non-low profile tires = comfort and smooth ride. Is ford in cahoots with the tire Co's to sell more expensive tires? CCD is not a stand alone option anywhere you have to get it with 22's I'm not going to try the twisty's in the EXPY that is what the 550i is for. EXPY's are for comfort and volume. Is there an advantage to Low profile other than twisty performance? Breaking? I don't think so, that is all about surface contact. Wait, not all but mostly, I forgot hardness, temperature and? That's it Breaking! adding extra weight in the 22 inch wheels and tires causes wheel hop in extreme breaking so CDD is added to compensate.

What year are you thinking of getting? Many of the third gen had the tow package with the 4 an7 pin trailer wiring, better radiator, trans cooler, trailer brake control, etc so they are easy to spot and I think just the longer ones and 4wd were the only ones with 3.7 gears. I think the ccd suspension came later and was an option but not sure about that, I think the later reserve model had that (with their $1000 dollar shocks). IDK why all the juggling of tire sizes came about, I guess the engineers had some theories on it. I don't buy the "more weight on the 22" tire and wheel hop" theory but I think most people know they don't ride as good but think they look better so they sacrifice ride for looks. It's strange how you have to pay more for less chrome on some options but I guess it's all about special order pricing.

 

[LokiWolf]

Wow. This was a riveting read. Mostly because everyone was, I think, correct based on their perspective. so if your perspective is that at a given speed gas mileage is everything to do with final gear ratio your claim would likely be agreed upon. If your perspective is that it is not possible to discuss a topic in theoretical terms and that all real world factors must be considered to discus a concept then you might be correct refuting the statement. BTW it is best not to use absolute words Like everything, nothing, never etc. in technical discussions. (notice I didn't say "never use"?)

Anyway, you guys seem knowledgeable so, I'm just shopping for a low mileage expedition to replace the wife's/Families 04 Escalade @ near 200K miles and dated technology. I read in some discussion that the Limited and Platinum Have the tow package. Does that mean that they have 3.73 rear end and bigger radiator and Trans. cooler or that they have the actual package with all the other gizmos? According to the 2019 Order Guide is an option except with special edition and blackout package. Trailer people like Black? Wait, that's why the tow package on the Black-out those with blackout are hiding something so when they run from the cops they can bring all their stolen booty in their trailer. I live south so better cooling is a significant plus. I like the limited with 302A for the tech but add that and hd tow and might as well buy a optionless Platinum. So what's the real deal with tow?

Last, Why can't I get CCD with 20 inch wheels or 18's for that matter? CCD + non-low profile tires = comfort and smooth ride. Is ford in cahoots with the tire Co's to sell more expensive tires? CCD is not a stand alone option anywhere you have to get it with 22's I'm not going to try the twisty's in the EXPY that is what the 550i is for. EXPY's are for comfort and volume. Is there an advantage to Low profile other than twisty performance? Breaking? I don't think so, that is all about surface contact. Wait, not all but mostly, I forgot hardness, temperature and? That's it Breaking! adding extra weight in the 22 inch wheels and tires causes wheel hop in extreme breaking so CDD is added to compensate.

Scott, Thanks! I suggest you start a new thread. Let’s not get in to the merits of one model or another in this thread.

If you are looking for 18+ be sure to post in the 4th Gen area.


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[07navi]

Scott, Thanks! I suggest you start a new thread. Let’s not get in to the merits of one model or another in this thread.

If you are looking for 18+ be sure to post in the 4th Gen area.


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I agree, not the thread for what you want.

 

[scotthere]

Thanks guys I'll figure out the thread thing I was just searching topically to see the good the bad and hopefully not the ugly.

 

[Ron Green]

I bought this 2020 Ford Expedition Platinum on 24 Aug 2020 off the showroom floor because it was park inside and out of the weather. I had a 2003 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer one owner me, had it for 17 years and had 254000 miles on it when i traded it in. My wife and I are crazy about the 2020 Ford Expedition Platinum we bought, it's a great SUV. We hope it treat us well.

We decided to use the 87 Octane fuel and see how our new vehicle runs. No problems yet runs great especially in Sport Mode really fast. I mostly drive in Normal Mode AWD.

 

[Tocapet]

I run 85 octane in my 2009 Expy EL. It runs just fine. But that's probably because of the altitude here in Colorado. Mid-grade here is 87. When I was back in Texas, the lowest grade was 87.

 

[JExpedition07]

The owners manual for my 2007 says not to use 86 or lower and to use 87 minimum even at higher altitudes.

 

[Tocapet]

Well, I ain't gonna do it. Mine does just fine on 85 for the last 3 years at 6000 ft above sea level.

 

[07navi]

The owners manual for my 2007 says not to use 86 or lower and to use 87 minimum even at higher altitudes.

The owners manual is not 100% right for everyone and all circumstances plus 86 vs 87 means little or nothing,

 

[LokiWolf]

I bought this 2020 Ford Expedition Platinum on 24 Aug 2020 off the showroom floor because it was park inside and out of the weather. I had a 2003 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer one owner me, had it for 17 years and had 254000 miles on it when i traded it in. My wife and I are crazy about the 2020 Ford Expedition Platinum we bought, it's a great SUV. We hope it treat us well.

We decided to use the 87 Octane fuel and see how our new vehicle runs. No problems yet runs great especially in Sport Mode really fast. I mostly drive in Normal Mode AWD.

In your 2020 you are losing about 15HP by running 87 VS 93.

Again, completely your call, but using 87 you are getting less than the factory documented power.


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[JasonH]

Well, I ain't gonna do it. Mine does just fine on 85 for the last 3 years at 6000 ft above sea level.

You can use the Octane Adjustment Ratio to see whether your ECU is pulling boost and timing due to the lower octane level. Mine usually runs -.6 on good 87 and -1.0 on a full tank of 93. Blends usually net a -.7 to -.8, depending on the ratio.

 

[LokiWolf]

You can use the Octane Adjustment Ratio to see whether your ECU is pulling boost and timing due to the lower octane level. Mine usually runs -.6 on good 87 and -1.0 on a full tank of 93. Blends usually net a -.7 to -.8, depending on the ratio.

He has a 2009, No boost. Should he run at least 87, Yes. Is he doing any damage, probably not. Unless he is regularly towing or running it hard.


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[chuck s]

In your 2020 you are losing about 15HP by running 87 VS 93.

I don't doubt the EcoBoost produces more power with 93 but to what purpose? How many HP at 2000 rpm? Unless I'm drag racing Dodge Wildcats between stoplights on Hull Street Road that's the rpm the truck seems to cruise.

I find 93 makes no noticeable difference in normal driving or when towing my travel trailer. Including last month in the NC mountains with the camper behind.

As you know in Richmond 93 is always 60¢/gallon more than 87 regardless of the price of 87. $1.99 for 87, $2.69 for 93 a 30% increase in cost. When 87 was $3.00 93 was $3.60. Only 20% more cost but the same dollars. A typical 24 gallon fill is $14.40 extra for possible extra power I can't/don't use. I can get a 12-pack of beer for that.

-- Chuck

 

[Tocapet]

It's strange that as you go up in altitude, the octane drops. Regular unleaded in Dallas, Texas is 87. Start traveling and in Amarillo, the regular unleaded is 86. Get up to Denver and it's 85. Altitude has something to do with it. That's why I don't worry about it. I run 85 in my '09 Expy EL with the 5.4 and it still runs like a scalded dog or a striped ape or whatever other comparison you name.