Auto stop benefit

[nobrainer]

I added a 'favorite' to see status of the start/stop. my A.Stop/Start (hehe... ASS) seems to work when it wants to... I understand when it's heating up or when I have the windshield defroster going it stays on. but just the other day, the engine/trans was warm, normal auto-heat was on, status showed something like "normal operation" - but it still didn't stop the engine at the lights or whatever. drove around for about 45min and it only started doing it the last 5 min or so of my trip. Weird. Since that day it was fine, but it's done things like that a few times in the months I've had mine.

A few years ago, I saw a YouTube video where they tested how much, if any, fuel saving was gained by turning off your engine. Again this was a few years ago in my mindless meandering on the internet, but they said, on their test car which was a 4 cyl, they found something along the lines of if the engine is off more than 7 seconds there was a fuel savings. I would imagine that would would vary depending on the engine, but still.

 

[aggiegrad05]

I added a 'favorite' to see status of the start/stop. my A.Stop/Start (hehe... ASS) seems to work when it wants to... I understand when it's heating up or when I have the windshield defroster going it stays on. but just the other day, the engine/trans was warm, normal auto-heat was on, status showed something like "normal operation" - but it still didn't stop the engine at the lights or whatever. drove around for about 45min and it only started doing it the last 5 min or so of my trip. Weird. Since that day it was fine, but it's done things like that a few times in the months I've had mine.

A few years ago, I saw a YouTube video where they tested how much, if any, fuel saving was gained by turning off your engine. Again this was a few years ago in my mindless meandering on the internet, but they said, on their test car which was a 4 cyl, they found something along the lines of if the engine is off more than 7 seconds there was a fuel savings. I would imagine that would would vary depending on the engine, but still.

The feature is not about saving us, the individual drivers, any gas or money. All the ASS naysayers on here are absolutely correct: an individual driver will not see any material savings over the life of the vehicle as a result of this system. But...if Ford sells a million vehicles a year (I’m making up a number, I have no idea how many they sell) then the aggregate effect of all those engines shutting off WILL have an appreciable effect on the overall fuel consumption of the fleet. Folks make the mistake of thinking that a system like this or a 1mpg increase is an effort to save each individual driver money...newsflash: it ain’t. It’s a fleet-wide, scaled effort.

And the incentives the manufacturers get from the EPA to include this system MUST be more lucrative than the cost to replace a few starters and batteries under warranty, otherwise Ford (and every other automaker on earth) wouldn’t include it. They know how math works and can figure that out.

So no, the system is of really no benefit to you other than the warm glow of knowing you’re part of a much larger effort to reduce fuel consumption and emissions...an effort that does work when you scale it up. And the systems are robust enough that Ford is not worried the cost of replacing starter motors is going to be significant enough to hit their bottom line.

(And I know someone(s) is going to say “I don’t want some lib tree huggin’ propaganda messin with me and my ride...‘Murcia!” And that’s fine. This is Murcia so you have the right to feel that way and say so. And to install your AutoStop Eliminator and be happy.)

 

[Rezolution]

It's obvious that the benefit is for Ford and not for the customer based on the simple fact that you can't turn it off and LEAVE it off. The fact that it turns on by default and can't be disabled by the customer should be enough to throw up the red flag.

 

[sjwhiteley]

It's obvious that the benefit is for Ford and not for the customer based on the simple fact that you can't turn it off and LEAVE it off. The fact that it turns on by default and can't be disabled by the customer should be enough to throw up the red flag.

Or that people don't like it, regardless of and perceived benefits or drawbacks. People are illogical and blithely do things against their best interests. Rather than argue the point, car manufacturers put the button in.

But as already noted, the AS/S is a net benefit for Ford (and other manufacturers) because Government.

 

[Zukhauler]

For what it's worth, the cost of a motorcraft starter for an expedition:

 

[aggiegrad05]

It's obvious that the benefit is for Ford and not for the customer based on the simple fact that you can't turn it off and LEAVE it off. The fact that it turns on by default and can't be disabled by the customer should be enough to throw up the red flag.

So by that logic traction control throws up a red flag?

 

[Deadman]

Its all a numbers game to meet the EPA numbers they need to meet. They could care less if it costs any one of us thousands of dollars over the lifespan of the vehicle, because that repair is from our wallets not theirs. Things typically don't fail early on during warranty periods and that's why they offer warranty periods.
If they can gain .1Mpg on anything, its huge, because then that frees them up from making a different vehicle more efficient. Its all about how they can gain the best EPA numbers the cheapest.

 

[haviland]

I don't have this system on my '17 Limited but I think it's a good idea.

To me it's all about emissions and the future of this here planet. I feel guilty enough driving this behemoth so if I could reduce emissions it's fine with me.

According to the articles posted by Cary Mccarr (post 3 15), the takeaway I had was any increased engine wear was negligible.

I think my grandkids and beyond are worth it.

 

[Deadman]

I don't have this system on my '17 Limited but I think it's a good idea.

To me it's all about emissions and the future of this here planet. I feel guilty enough driving this behemoth so if I could reduce emissions it's fine with me.

According to the articles posted by Cary Mccarr (post 3 15), the takeaway I had was any increased engine wear was negligible.

I think my grandkids and beyond are worth it.

You should consider a Prius.......

 

[mrmachinist]

You should consider a Prius.......

Then you have all the pollution from making and disposing of batteries.

If you truly want to be eco friendly. Get a junker out of the junkyard and resurrect it and run that forever. Way less pollution than making a new car.....

Personally I don’t like the ASS feature. This is my first vehicle that has it. I think it’s a dumb idea with no real benefit.

I’ll be getting an eliminator in the future.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Barry Smith]

That's the second button I hit right after the starter button.

 

[Rezolution]

So by that logic traction control throws up a red flag?

Yes, it's another feature that auto-defaults to 'on' each time you start the car and there is no setting to permanently disable it. I'm sure that traction control helps them avoid "rollover" or "flip-over" lawsuits. They really don't want you to turn it off and leave it off.

 

[aggiegrad05]

Yes, it's another feature that auto-defaults to 'on' each time you start the car and there is no setting to permanently disable it. I'm sure that traction control helps them avoid "rollover" or "flip-over" lawsuits. They really don't want you to turn it off and leave it off.

You're right, traction control (and other systems like it) were not designed to keep drivers safer. It was just to avoid lawsuits.

And I am sure it is a complete coincidence that that in 1979 (the year Cadillac rolled out traction control) there were 51,091 motor vehicle deaths on 2,144 billion miles traveled for a rate of 3.34 deaths for every 100mm miles traveled and in 2019 there were 36,560 deaths even though the miles traveled went up to 3,223 billion miles for a rate of only 1.13 deaths per 100mm traveled (a 67% reduction in the number of deaths per mile traveled). Yep, complete coincidence.

 

[JExpedition07]

You are best to eliminate auto start stop if you plan to keep the truck long term. Cranking the engine when oil pressure is low wears bearings and cams faster, and the starter being built stronger is pretty laughable. Take a look at them, the starters are still pretty wimpy. There isn’t much extra beef to an AS/S starter. It was a government mandate that barely saves a few hundred dollars in fuel over the starters lifespan. The savings are negated when it needs to be replaced.

 

[sjwhiteley]

An oldie (for young millennials) but a goodie: Jason (Engineering Explained) does a good job of explaining a few things.


I don't know why people seem astonished - and cannot believe - that technology has advanced where we can get electric motors, and their electromechanical components to last magnitudes longer, as well as being more effective and efficient, than components designed and built even a few decades ago.

 

[aggiegrad05]

An oldie (for young millennials) but a goodie: Jason (Engineering Explained) does a good job of explaining a few things.


I don't know why people seem astonished - and cannot believe - that technology has advanced where we can get electric motors, and their electromechanical components to last magnitudes longer, as well as being more effective and efficient, than components designed and built even a few decades ago.

OMG...how dare you insert actual DATA into the argument?!?!?!

The moneyshot in that video is that you increase efficiency by between 4% and 8% using ASS. Assuming 12.000 miles driven, an avg mpg of 19, and an average fuel cost of $2.54 per gallon...you end up with a fuel savings of $64-$139 per 12,000 miles driven. Agreed, not much.

But. If you go on a gallon basis not a dollar basis, and you scale it across all the expis sold, the numbers are impressive...

4%-8% increased efficiency results in each expy driving 12,000 miles per year saving between 25 and 55 gallons of fuel a year. Ford sold 86,422 expis last year. Which means in the aggregate, equipping those vehicles with ASS saves between 2,183,293 and 4,748,661 gallons of gas per year. Given there are about 20 gallons of automotive fuel produced from each 42-gallon barrel of oil, ASS reduces consumption by between 109,164 and 237,433 bbls of oil. Per year. Just Ford expeditions. If you scale it even further, you begin to see that these systems have real world positive impacts.

And before you accuse me of being a greenie, I live in Texas and work for an oil company.

I don't care what you do with your ASS (hehe!) but the implementation of the system by all automakers across their fleets does have a significant impact.

 

[JExpedition07]

Jason explains fuel savings and a bit about starters, I and others are explaining that cranking an engine over with little to no oil pressure does more harm/wear to the engines internals than the guy idling at the light next car over with an oil pump chugging away while it idles. I think we are talking about two separate issues, one being wear on hard internal parts and one being fuel savings. I guess it depends which you weight as more important, for me it’s reliability and maybe for some it’s fuel savings. There have been no significant internal changes to the main bearings, rods, camshafts, and oil passages in pre start/stop 5.0 and EcoBoost engines to current engines that use the technology. It’s extra wear accumulated over time, and as the evidence suggests a rushed government mandate to maintain compliance. Not synonymous with well thought out and reliable.

 

[aggiegrad05]

Jason explains fuel savings and a bit about starters, I and others are explaining that cranking an engine over with little to no oil pressure does more harm/wear to the engines internals than the guy idling at the light next car over with an oil pump chugging away while it idles. I think we are talking about two separate issues, one being wear on hard internal parts and one being fuel savings. I guess it depends which you weight as more important, for me it’s reliability and maybe for some it’s fuel savings. There have been no significant internal changes to the main bearings, rods, camshafts, and oil passages in pre start/stop 5.0 and EcoBoost engines to current engines that use the technology. It’s extra wear accumulated over time, and as the evidence suggests a rushed government mandate to maintain compliance. Not synonymous with well thought out and reliable.

I will say, while my engine is off my oil pressure gauge stays where it was when the engine was running. But, last month I had a 2019 F150 as a loaner while mine was getting an oil change and some other maintenance done. In the F150, about 5 seconds after the ASS shut the motor off, the oil pressure gauge dropped to 0. And I agree that was concerning.

And I am not ignoring your point on reliability, I am just making the related point that the benefits of this system, fleet-wide, outweigh any reliability issues that may arise. IF they arise.

And in the Engineering Explained video, Jason makes the point that engineers are smart and have designed the engines to deal with the increased stress of repeated starts. But I understand folks don't believe that to be true, or don't believe any changes that have been made to be sufficient.

 

[mrmachinist]

And in the Engineering Explained video, Jason makes the point that engineers are smart and have designed the engines to deal with the increased stress of repeated starts. But I understand folks don't believe that to be true, or don't believe any changes that have been made to be sufficient.

That is a scary thought if you have had as much experience with mechanical design engineers as I have.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Wangle]

My 2018 Expy replaced Ol’Red 2003 Expy with 218,000 miles. I plan on trading again in 2035. I LOVE that AS/S is on my 2018. I turn it off immediately at every start with one button push. I get a more robust starter, which should last me until 2035 and 200,000+ miles due to my reduced use. I also get a much better AGM battery! I have been in one situation since owning the vehicle that the system was beneficial. I was in creeping traffic for two hours on I 80, stopped for two or three minutes, creep forward three or four car lengths with an outside temperature of about 60°. I actually turned it back on! I must admit it worked well in that situation. I thought it was silly to spend nearly $100 to be sure it was turned off when I can just push a button, but I am now shopping for that solution. So, in summary, it is there if/when I need/want it, I get a couple of upgrades, and I may spend an extra few dollars a year on fuel by turning it off, not risking my engine due to frequent starts with no oil. I would much rather idle a warm engine for a minute or two than shut it off and restart it. No, I don’t have scientific evidence, but I do have ears that tell me the first couple of seconds after starting may be detrimental.