Has anyone had FSA 21N08 reflash done yet?

[2018ExpyPlatinum]

100% the same boat I am in right now. It sucks because because I love so much about it... the power, handling, and fuel economy for its size are so nice in a full size suv

Exactly....I love mine too. Great highway cruiser, we load tons of stuff in it, fast, handles well for a 6000 lb brick, I've had it all over AZ, CA, NM, Utah. No issues, but the rose is off the bloom.

 

[Bill Schell]

I had my 2018 Expy cam phasers replaced under warranty at 48k miles. At 53k miles had the 21B10B (titled for cam phaser rattle). My cam phasers did not rattle after replacement. After the 21B10B , I think the engine is programmed to crank a little longer before starting. This is just my theory. The flash also impacted how transmission shifts. I notice that the truck will shudder just like a vehicle with a manual transmission when you have it in too high a gear for the speed you are going. The truck seems to shift up in a quicker sequence than before. I think the truck is operating in city driving a lower rpms (the transmission is up shifting quicker and or at lower mph of the vehicle). I also think my fuel economy has improved with city driving. Another words seems like normal drive mode behaves like a economy drive mode.
My Ford App is showing 21N03 and 21N08 recall notices. Looking at my cam phaser replacement invoice, it shows the work done as warranty work not as a recall. Perhaps this explains why I would have the 21N03 notice.

I had my 2018 Expedition cam phasers and timing chains replaced under warranty, in 2020, at 50K. Purportedly, they are of new design intended to address the common start-up rattle. So far (~9k miles of operation), it has been running just fine with only a little, occasional, rattle at start-up. I just received my Dear Bill letter advising me of the latest Ford engineering department experiment.

Let me see if I have this correct. You want hundreds of thousands of already pissed off Ford customers to schedule appointments by 2/28/22, at understaffed and less than motivated service departments, to have a PCM flash that may take up to "less than one and a half days, however, due to service scheduling requirements, your dealer may need your vehicle for a longer period of time". Additionally, if the experiment dosen't fix your rattle and/or shudder, you can then schedule a follow-up appointment with the now even more overrun and unmotivated service departments to change the settings back to the settings that also have the same base problem.

Anyone else reading this special "customer satisfaction program" offer differently? RU f$*^@!* kidding me?

I plan to discuss this with my dealer and see what they suggest but it is going to take one hell of a sound argument for me to become part of the latest experiment.

 

[2018ExpyPlatinum]

I had my 2018 Expedition cam phasers and timing chains replaced under warranty, in 2020, at 50K. Purportedly, they are of new design intended to address the common start-up rattle. So far (~9k miles of operation), it has been running just fine with only a little, occasional, rattle at start-up. I just received my Dear Bill letter advising me of the latest Ford engineering department experiment.

Let me see if I have this correct. You want hundreds of thousands of already pissed off Ford customers to schedule appointments by 2/28/22, at understaffed and less than motivated service departments, to have a PCM flash that may take up to "less than one and a half days, however, due to service scheduling requirements, your dealer may need your vehicle for a longer period of time". Additionally, if the experiment dosen't fix your rattle and/or shudder, you can then schedule a follow-up appointment with the now even more overrun and unmotivated service departments to change the settings back to the settings that also have the same base problem.

Anyone else reading this special "customer satisfaction program" offer differently? RU f$*^@!* kidding me?

I plan to discuss this with my dealer and see what they suggest but it is going to take one hell of a sound argument for me to become part of the latest experiment.

In a word, um, YES. Yes, you have it correct. Though I think it says to allow HALF a day to do the PCM and 1 1/2 days to change the cam phasers.

And what happens when the dealer tells you, you need your phasers fixed? What if you refuse? I need to call my dealer to schedule the PCM and see what they say now.

SO disappointed! ARE YOU LISTENING FORD??????

 

[KenK]

Same here. Got my letter and trying to decide if I want them mess with my perfectly running truck or just pass and take my chances. Am not interested in studder, shudder, or rattles.

 

[Waldo78]

CAM PHASER REPLACEMENT
I was reluctant to have the dealer tear into my 2018 3.5 Echo
boast. I watched the procedure online, very involved. I did a bit of research on dealers and chose one nearly 100 miles from my location. It was a large dealer with certified techs. I have a local Ford dealer but felt they wouldn't be up to the task as they had a difficult time repairing my mirror, I live in a small town. It has been a couple of weeks now and luckily everything seems to be the same less the nasty noise ,sounded like the engine had no oil in it, at startup.
I have just under 68K so Ford covered 100% of the repair. One thing I should have done is had the dealer replace the water pump with a new one since it was one of the items removed to access the phasers. Probably would have only had to pay for the new part.
All said,I'm glad I had the phasers replaced and am happy with the dealer I chose.
I believe the larger dealer was a good choice because they most likely have engine techs which have performed this repair many times.

Question; My auto start/stop feature hasn't worked for a while now. The battery tested fine. I read up on it a bit with no resolve. Anyone have any ideas?
Best...

 

[Going_Going_Gone]

Not knowing how much the pandemic was going to change our lives from what was anticipated, I purchased an eight-year 100K mile extended warranty so I'm going to ask the service manager about forgoing the initial reflash. Mine makes no noise, has minimal miles on the vehicle, oil is changed around every 4,000 miles, and am ready to schedule its third oil change--a whopping 12k miles in nearly three years. BTW, my Auto Start/Stop hasn't worked for at least a year even with using a trickle charger to keep the battery fully charged. I consider having a non-functional start/stop device a "plus."

 

[Bill Schell]

While at the Yuma, AZ Ford getting an oil change this past week, I asked about the service notice, that I had recently had the cam phasers, timing chains, etc. replaced, and what I should do. They said it's still recommended to have the updates done to "make sure the problems don't happen again". Really? I was told that the parts used in the R&R job were of "new design" to remedy the shortcomings of the original parts.

Has anyone found details about what the re-programs do? I have not yet started looking into details about this and the service reps did not have anything detailed... just the party line.

To be quite frank, I have no f&%#$*% confidence in Ford anymore and plan to sell/trade my unit in. I'm tired of being part of their customer satisfaction experiment on the EcoBust power plant.

 

[BMW2FORD]

I’m in the same position. Phasers done at around 40k and now have 66k and still quite. I had the software update done but now have the shudder at 1100-1300 but wondering do I live with the shudder if this software really protects the phasers? Does the 21N08 take it back to an original level or maybe it still has some changes to protect them but get rid of the shudder? I’ve been mostly doing all my local driving in sport mode to not let the car lug that low of an rpm and shudder.

 

[Bill Schell]

I’m in the same position. Phasers done at around 40k and now have 66k and still quite. I had the software update done but now have the shudder at 1100-1300 but wondering do I live with the shudder if this software really protects the phasers? Does the 21N08 take it back to an original level or maybe it still has some changes to protect them but get rid of the shudder? I’ve been mostly doing all my local driving in sport mode to not let the car lug that low of an rpm and shudder.

Until I get some specifics on what the reprograms do, I'm holding off. Trading start-up clicking for what sounds like a power neuter job and a "shudder" is nuts. These guys are simply trying to Band-Aid a crap design. If Ford was serious about this they would offer customers compensation as Volkswagen did. Plenty of better engineered options out there.

 

[5280tunage]

While at the Yuma, AZ Ford getting an oil change this past week, I asked about the service notice, that I had recently had the cam phasers, timing chains, etc. replaced, and what I should do. They said it's still recommended to have the updates done to "make sure the problems don't happen again". Really? I was told that the parts used in the R&R job were of "new design" to remedy the shortcomings of the original parts.

Has anyone found details about what the re-programs do? I have not yet started looking into details about this and the service reps did not have anything detailed... just the party line.

To be quite frank, I have no f&%#$*% confidence in Ford anymore and plan to sell/trade my unit in. I'm tired of being part of their customer satisfaction experiment on the EcoBust power plant.

To your last statement, I completely agree. However, this is clearly the future of consumerism in the US. Between lean mfg, agile methodologies, and the push to get out every thing starting with a minimally viable product, this will only get worse. I too don't like the idea of test as little as you can, get an MVP out there, and let the consumers test for us is a recipe for disaster. An 80k truck is not the same as the next iPhone that requires a small software update to correct some functional issues. It's everywhere though.

 

[5280tunage]

Until I get some specifics on what the reprograms do, I'm holding off. Trading start-up clicking for what sounds like a power neuter job and a "shudder" is nuts. These guys are simply trying to Band-Aid a crap design. If Ford was serious about this they would offer customers compensation as Volkswagen did. Plenty of better engineered options out there.

Here's the thing though, we are just now starting to see the likes of companies like Toyota introduce V6TT designs. From a power/efficiency perspective, there really hasn't been a good competitor, that's why I bought this thing. Just wish the part quality and manufacturing was better. Those two things seem like they are going to tarnish the image.

 

[2018ExpyPlatinum]

Y'all better read that letter again. As I read it (not saying I'm right), If you DON'T do the updates, I think Ford will not cover it in the future. MORE importantly, do it or not, it says they will only cover repairs until JAN 1, 2023.

It says you must do 21B10. That kicks in 21N03 which allows either the PCM to be returned to the original if you get shutter and a "prorated ONE TIME repair and coverage will EXPIRE on Jan 1, 2023".

I haven't called my dealer yet to understand better. I might do it and let the chips fall where they may. I WILL NOT do the cam phaser repair. I'll dump it first, which will be done, unfortunately, sooner rather than later at this point. I may not even do 21B10. Not sure yet.

I hope Ford reads all this because I was thinking next year or two about maybe getting a Aviator. Sorry, not now. Sale lost, not that anyone really cares anymore.

 

[bill_b]

UPDATE: So I talked to Ford customer service today. From what I have gathered my dealership performed 21B10 on October 1st (NOT 21N08 which is supposed to be a factory roll back). From what the rep told me 21B10 needed to be done before 21N08 even though I have a FSA for 21N08.

So, I have an appointment no November 15th to have 21N08 performed. This is it Ford, this is your last damn chance to remedy this, my vehicle will now have been to the dealership 7 different times in 2 years for various things that weren't normal maintenance!

 

[Sips-FX4]

Had my cam phasers done back in July. Cam phaser rattle back and check engine light on. Took it to dealer said it was cam phaser issue again. Did the re program- to no avail- the engine light back on. Now they say it needs another round of cam phasers. Dealer called and said bill would be $1200. I had the original work done under warranty 54k miles. I now have 85k miles. So i guess every 30k miles i am looking at $1200 bill.....crazy this is not covered under warranty!!!

 

[bill_b]

Had my cam phasers done back in July. Cam phaser rattle back and check engine light on. Took it to dealer said it was cam phaser issue again. Did the re program- to no avail- the engine light back on. Now they say it needs another round of cam phasers. Dealer called and said bill would be $1200. I had the original work done under warranty 54k miles. I now have 85k miles. So i guess every 30k miles i am looking at $1200 bill.....crazy this is not covered under warranty!!!

I'm honestly surprised you got out of there for under $1200. I would have thought that repair had been in the $3000 range

 

[Bill Schell]

Y'all better read that letter again. As I read it (not saying I'm right), If you DON'T do the updates, I think Ford will not cover it in the future. MORE importantly, do it or not, it says they will only cover repairs until JAN 1, 2023.

It says you must do 21B10. That kicks in 21N03 which allows either the PCM to be returned to the original if you get shutter and a "prorated ONE TIME repair and coverage will EXPIRE on Jan 1, 2023".

I haven't called my dealer yet to understand better. I might do it and let the chips fall where they may. I WILL NOT do the cam phaser repair. I'll dump it first, which will be done, unfortunately, sooner rather than later at this point. I may not even do 21B10. Not sure yet.

I hope Ford reads all this because I was thinking next year or two about maybe getting a Aviator. Sorry, not now. Sale lost, not that anyone really cares anymore.

You probably are correct. It's seems pretty clear from your quoted statements that FMC is threading the needle on this glaring design issue and trying to minimize financial damage to the company.

I'm beginning to also believe I was fed a line of bull about the parts used for my cam phasers and timing chains, etc. repair being of "new design". I have had no luck getting in touch with anyone from FMC or other reliable sources that can validate this. Were it true, one would think FMC would be openly advertising the changes. Of course, it could be that it's still just part of the EcoBust experiment and their not sure if it will resolve the issue .

I've already asked earlier in the thread if anyone out there has obtained detailed info about the PCM re-flashes (what specifically do they change) or about replacement VCT parts being a revised design... and not seen any replies. Maybe they've been covered in another thread? If anyone knows where, please share.

 

[bill_b]

Still shudders after reflash.

Fml

 

[Jack RJ]

I scheduled the initial step of the Cam Phaser Reprogramming about three weeks ago. At the time I scheduled service, I clarified that whether or not my vehicle had experienced a rattle at startup, that a reprogramming would be done. It was also discussed that the reprogramming could result in a shudder in the drive train which would require further work.

I took my Expedition in for the scheduled appointment this morning and was informed by the service writer that the dealership would only reprogram the vehicle if I was already experiencing the rattle noise. I mentioned that in the prior conversations with their service department, that I was told that the reprogramming would be done whether the rattle had started occurring or not. I also mentioned that I had seen a Ford Tech discuss that the programming would be one version if the rattle was not occurring, and a different version if the rattle was occurring. The service writer continued to insist that the dealership would not do the reprogramming unless the rattle was occurring. To then add to the confusion, the service writer then agreed to take my vehicle into the shop. My obvious response was, "What is the point of doing a service if you are insisting you are not doing the reprogramming?", and then left the dealership.

I called three other local dealerships, two of which said they would do the reprogramming even if the rattle had not occurred yet. The third dealership said they would not do the reprograming unless the rattle was occurring. So now I am scheduled with a dealer who appears to be making an honest attempt to carry out the Custome Satisfaction Program per Ford. The advantage of this is that supposedly the vehicle will be covered for 100% of the cam phaser repair through 79,900 miles (if I recall the mileage), and some date which I am not sure about.

Ford Corporate & Ford Dealers have mismanaged this "Customer Satisfaction Program", with declining satisfaction on my part, while apparently trying to minimize the damage to Ford.

 

[Soliyou]

The situation is really bad with Ford now. They only pay the dealership 75-80% of the labor cost, and guess what, the technicians are the ones who have to cover the difference. So they basically work 15 hours but get paid only 10 hours. We are talking about millions of trucks and SUVs!

Plus, Ford decided to raise the MSRP and the invoice price. They noticed that people are still buying with all these markups, so they raised the MSRP. Of course the dealerships aren’t happy about that.

I am not sure what will happen next, but the supply chain issues are getting real bad, and omicron hasn’t hit hard yet.

 

[m3bs]

I had 21B10 done last week on my '19. Mine had only recently started rattling on startup. So far, the results are positive. Less rattle on startup, and no adverse effects so far. Fingers crossed....