Headers? Yes? No?

[donl]

Gearing up to "restore" my '03 4.6L Expy with 150K miles. Very well maintained, motor and trans in good condition. Plan is to restore interior and exterior to "showroom" condition. Vehicle is already lowered with Eibach/Bilsteins and 20" wheels/tires and upgraded radio with hands free, navigation, etc.

Mechanical plan includes 4.11 gears, under drive pulley kit, 5 Star tuning, CAI and shorty headers. Debating on headers as it has been a while since owning a vehicle with headers; don't want to increase cabin noise. With the other modifications, I am not sure that whatever gain I might see from a set of shorty headers is worth the trade off for an increase in cabin noise but I don't know if there will be an increase in cabin noise.

What say you that are running headers regarding increased cabin noise?

 

[1955moose]

The problem with most headers is not much increased noise, but constantly having to deal with gasket fit/sealing, and stud/nut tightness. In the old days getting at oil filter and spark plugs was a problem. The noise and sometimes a droning sound comes from the exaust mufflers themselves. Headers definitely help middle to top end performance when adjustment of fuel matches increased breathing, but keep in mind you'll also lose the bottom end a bit. When you deal with any mods, theirs always a trade-off. That's why most hotrodders do bigger pistons, higher compression, etc to make up for what they lose. Then you have a win win situation. Power from idle to 7 grand.

Sent from my N9131 using Tapatalk

 

[donl]

Thanks for the reply. So, are you saying there is increased cabin noise or not? If so, how much of an increase? I did replace the Magnaflow muffler that came with the catback system with a Walker piece because of that drone you speak of. The Walker is near droneless; just a tweak over stock and would not be noticed by anyone but me.

I am familiar with the impact of headers, cams, more displacement, head porting, etc., etc.. Ran a B/MP car back in the late 80's up and down the Gulf Coast and build performance motors for Harley Davidsons, so I also understand the trade-off you speak of as well as how to minimize it. The gear change from 3.73's to 4.11's will compensate for any loss of bottom end from the other modifications which I expect to be marginal.

Not building a hot rod, just want to add a measurable bump to TQ/HP as part of the restoration. Thanks again for the reply.

 

[HawkX66]

With the right system, the 4.6L sounds great. I helped my son put headers on his GT when we rebuilt the engine. It depends on you whether the juice is worth the squeeze. With new fastener options like Stage8 header bolts and better sealing gaskets, the leaks of yesterday can be eliminated.
My guess is that, unlike with the GT, fitment won't be an issue with the size of the engine bay.





See the header bolts in this pic. No leaks after about 5k miles.

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[donl]

With the right system, the 4.6L sounds great. I helped my son put headers on his GT when we rebuilt the engine. It depends on you whether the juice is worth the squeeze. With new fastener options like Stage8 header bolts and better sealing gaskets, the leaks of yesterday can be eliminated. My guess is that, unlike with the GT, fitment won't be an issue with the size of the engine bay.

Thanks for the heads up. Please clue me in on the source for the Stage 8 header bolts and the better sealing gaskets. Fitment is not really an "issue" but the R/R is a true PITA. Some remove the inner fender to make it much easier. I will not do this install; have a local independent that does this stuff daily and he will do the work.

No comment on increased cabin noise?

 

[HawkX66]

Thanks for the heads up. Please clue me in on the source for the Stage 8 header bolts and the better sealing gaskets. Fitment is not really an "issue" but the R/R is a true PITA. Some remove the inner fender to make it much easier. I will not do this install; have a local independent that does this stuff daily and he will do the work.

No comment on increased cabin noise?

I would go with long tube headers for starters. That's where you're going to get the benefits. A quick google search for Stage 8 will give you a million different vendors. Summit Racing being one of them. Amazon? etc. Percy's sells aluminum gaskets that work well. There are a million different options. These are just a few that have worked in the past for me.
Cabin noise. That I can't really comment on because I haven't driven in Ex with headers. Generally speaking you're going to get some, but if it's a good install, it should be coming out the tail pipes and not from any echo in the engine bay.
FWIW, I'm a big block Chevy guy. I have a 69 Camaro big block that I built. With that said, I still really am impressed and love the sound of my sons Mustang. Very "throaty." Stainless headers, off road H pipe and flow master muffler/exhaust.

 

[donl]

I would go with long tube headers for starters. That's where you're going to get the benefits. A quick google search for Stage 8 will give you a million different vendors. Summit Racing being one of them. Amazon? etc. Percy's sells aluminum gaskets that work well. There are a million different options. These are just a few that have worked in the past for me.
Cabin noise. That I can't really comment on because I haven't driven in Ex with headers. Generally speaking you're going to get some, but if it's a good install, it should be coming out the tail pipes and not from any echo in the engine bay.
FWIW, I'm a big block Chevy guy. I have a 69 Camaro big block that I built. With that said, I still really am impressed and love the sound of my sons Mustang. Very "throaty." Stainless headers, off road H pipe and flow master muffler/exhaust.

Thanks, Summit Racing is a source I have used in the past. I do understand and agree, to some extent, your comment on long tube headers but that isn't going to happen. Recently replaced everything from the exhaust manifold back, i.e., cats and OEM exhaust was replaced with Magnaflow cat back system aside from the fact that this vehicle will see 100% intown driving except an occasional 150 mile interstate trip to visit family so I really don't need the additional top end benefit that come with long tube headers.

The B/MP car I referenced in #3 was a '56 Chevy Bel Aire powered by a 350 Chevy stroked to 372CI with a tunnel ram manifold for two Holley's, etc., etc.. It would barely pull itself out of it's own smoke below 5000 rpms. I converted to Fords, no particular reason, when I replace my sedans with SUVs.

Thanks again for the information.

 

[HawkX66]

Thanks, Summit Racing is a source I have used in the past. I do understand and agree, to some extent, your comment on long tube headers but that isn't going to happen. Recently replaced everything from the exhaust manifold back, i.e., cats and OEM exhaust was replaced with Magnaflow cat back system aside from the fact that this vehicle will see 100% intown driving except an occasional 150 mile interstate trip to visit family so I really don't need the additional top end benefit that come with long tube headers.

The B/MP car I referenced in #3 was a '56 Chevy Bel Aire powered by a 350 Chevy stroked to 372CI with a tunnel ram manifold for two Holley's, etc., etc.. It would barely pull itself out of it's own smoke below 5000 rpms. I converted to Fords, no particular reason, when I replace my sedans with SUVs.

Thanks again for the information.

Gotcha. Don't know how I missed the info about your B/MP car! Sounds awesome. I think you'll appreciate this pic. It's of my Dad back in the late 60s/70s racing at New England Dragway. 62 Nova w/ 426 Hemi, Hilborn fuel injection etc. It actually had a big Pontiac motor in it in this pic. I grew knowing it with stacks sticking up out of the hood. That was my playground...

 

[donl]

Cool picture. Those days are gone though; not really a "hobbyist" sport now.

 

[HawkX66]

Cool picture. Those days are gone though; not really a "hobbyist" sport now.

Maybe not where you are, but there are plenty of guys still ripping it up on "test and tune" nights. You just can't compete without sponsors or deep pockets though.

 

[donl]

Maybe not where you are, but there are plenty of guys still ripping it up on "test and tune" nights. You just can't compete without sponsors or deep pockets though.

Understood but to compete in today's equivalent of say B/G or B/MP pretty much limits the shade tree, blue color, DIY racer to "test and tune" night which was the point I was trying to make. Just takes those deep pockets to compete at the same level compared to the '60s and 70's. I used AGC scholarship money to build the 372" stroker for the B/MP car and built the motor in my dorm room.

 

[rjdelp7]

This model Expedition has 4 catalytic converters, single, 2 into 1 and 2 1/4" pipes.. Unless you go with a illegal 'off road' dual set up, headers will not do much. The PCM fuel/air mixture is run off the front O2 sensors. The cooler fast moving exhaust, will affect timing. It may pull timing to compensate for running lean. You will have to buy an expensive tuner, to do it correctly. It is a big expense, for little gain. The 4.6l trition is a work horse, not a high performance Mustang engine. Hot Rodding a 150,000mi engine is just asking for trouble.

 

[donl]

This model Expedition has 4 catalytic converters, single, 2 into 1 and 2 1/4" pipes.. Unless you go with a illegal 'off road' dual set up, headers will not do much. The PCM fuel/air mixture is run off the front O2 sensors. The cooler fast moving exhaust, will affect timing. It may pull timing to compensate for running lean. You will have to buy an expensive tuner, to do it correctly. It is a big expense, for little gain. The 4.6l trition is a work horse, not a high performance Mustang engine. Hot Rodding a 150,000mi engine is just asking for trouble.

Hot rodding? I hardly think so. I assume you read my OP and understand that this is a "restoration" project, not a hot rod project. The intent is to restore the outward and inward appearance from 15 years of wear to a "like new" appearance enhanced by replacing the 20" wheel/tire assembly with a set of 22" Hurst Stunner wheels and Michelin LTX tires. I have always run the LTX tires on this vehicle since new.

While I was at it, I thought why not add a little punch to the 4.6L V8 that is still very tight by adding a tuner, 4.10 gear set, CAI, electric fans, underdrive pulley kit and, yeah, a set of shorty headers. While I agree that the cost/benefit of adding a set of headers to a bone stock motor doesn't add up, I don't agree that adding a set of shorty headers to the above group of modifications won't enhance the package.

Knowing I would very likely take this step with 125K miles on the clock, I replaced the catalytic converters and OEM exhaust system with Magnaflow cats with 3" tubing. I did however replace the Magnaflow muffler with a slightly more restrictive Walker muffler to eliminate the cabin drone from the Magnaflow muffler.

Asking for trouble, au contraire mon frere.I can easily see another 50K trouble free miles from this vehicle that will be driven nearly exclusively in town for at least the next five years and it will be more fun to drive with these relatively mild modifications.

 

[rjdelp7]

Hot rodding? I hardly think so. I assume you read my OP and understand that this is a "restoration" project, not a hot rod project. The intent is to restore the outward and inward appearance from 15 years of wear to a "like new" appearance enhanced by replacing the 20" wheel/tire assembly with a set of 22" Hurst Stunner wheels and Michelin LTX tires. I have always run the LTX tires on this vehicle since new.

While I was at it, I thought why not add a little punch to the 4.6L V8 that is still very tight by adding a tuner, 4.10 gear set, CAI, electric fans, underdrive pulley kit and, yeah, a set of shorty headers. While I agree that the cost/benefit of adding a set of headers to a bone stock motor doesn't add up, I don't agree that adding a set of shorty headers to the above group of modifications won't enhance the package.

Knowing I would very likely take this step with 125K miles on the clock, I replaced the catalytic converters and OEM exhaust system with Magnaflow cats with 3" tubing. I did however replace the Magnaflow muffler with a slightly more restrictive Walker muffler to eliminate the cabin drone from the Magnaflow muffler.

Asking for trouble, au contraire mon frere.I can easily see another 50K trouble free miles from this vehicle that will be driven nearly exclusively in town for at least the next five years and it will be more fun to drive with these relatively mild modifications.

What kind of budget do have for this restore? Its worth around $3800 in excellent condition. 150K, 14yrs of driving and wear on all components. Little things like wiper motor, electronics, gear shift, door latches, u joints, half shafts, springs, bushings, weather stripping, door hinges/latches, to name a few. Somebody hits it the insurance will only give you 'book'.

 

[ExplorerTom]

I put a full Magnaflow cat back on mine when I could have fixed the exhaust by putting a new $20 clamp on it. I put $500 radiator fans in mine because i was tired of changing $65 fan clutches. I’m considering doing a regear on mine because I suspect the pinion bearing is going out. I sent my fuel injectors out to be cleaned beause I figured it was time. If my engine/transmission go out, i will seriously consider replacing them. My truck has 241,000 miles on it. It’s been totaled from hail already.

Point is, driving any vehicle is not a good financial decision. But fixing up an older truck will be far cheaper than buying new. And what are the actual chances someone will plow into it? Fairly slim in my experience.

And it’s not your money.

I say: heck yes on the headers!

 

[HawkX66]

The 4.6l trition is a work horse, not a high performance Mustang engine.

Please explain the difference between the two.

 

[donl]

[QUOTE="rjdelp7]What kind of budget do have for this restore? Its worth around $3800 in excellent condition. 150K, 14yrs of driving and wear on all components. Little things like wiper motor, electronics, gear shift, door latches, u joints, half shafts, springs, bushings, weather stripping, door hinges/latches, to name a few. Somebody hits it the insurance will only give you 'book'.[/QUOTE]

Well, let's see. Most of those "little" things you list above would have been a concern if I was talking about "restoring" a '56 Chevy but not with '03 technology; those little things are truly not issues and should they become issues, all are inexpensive, weekend DIY fixes, so truly do not factor into my decision. Additionally, after nearly 15 years of driving, the only thing that has hit the vehicle was a tree that I backed into which will be addressed as part of the restoration.

Not that it's any of your business but I have budgeted $10K for this project which will include the following which I have confirmed cost to be $10,170 but I do expect some surprises and know that cost could grow to $11K. Still, IMHO, a bargain compared to giving away a perfectly good vehicle as a trade on a new or used vehicle and kicking in the balance which could be anywhere between $35K and $60K depending on what vehicle I choose to replace it with. Considering I will not finance either option, $11K is looking pretty good right now and, besides, I love my truck. I have also considered the "what if" scenario should the motor or transmission fail sometime in the next five years and I will replace them should that happen and should that happen, being an old gear head, "hot rodding" then could come into play.

At the end of the day, we all have different views on our vehicles; you have yours and I have mine. No disrespect intended but don't you think I have considered all the options available? When I ask about headers, I don't need to be lectured on hot rodding, book value, little things breaking, etc. I want to know what others have experienced that have installed headers on their like vehicles, particularly if the cabin noise level increased and, if so, how much. So, if you can answer that question, I would be glad to hear your experience, otherwise, you need not post a reply.

MOTOR WORK
Under Drive Pulley Kit
Fresh Air Intake
Shorty Headers
Tuner/Chip
Electric Fan kit
Miscellaneous parts, i.e., belts, hoses, fuel and water pump, etc.

EXTERIOR
Dent/Scratch Removal
Complete Paint Job
Tires, 22" Michelin LTX
Weathertech Window Deflector
Wheels, 22" X 9.5 Hurst Stunners

INTERI0R
Weathertech Floor Liner
Weathertech Cargo Line
Reupholster Front Seats
Replace Steering Wheel

SUSPENSION
Shocks, Bilsteins

EDIT: Update to cost; just got final pricing on the motor parts and it looks like I can complete this project for $9774; so things are looking up.

 

[rjdelp7]

[QUOTE="rjdelp7]What kind of budget do have for this restore? Its worth around $3800 in excellent condition. 150K, 14yrs of driving and wear on all components. Little things like wiper motor, electronics, gear shift, door latches, u joints, half shafts, springs, bushings, weather stripping, door hinges/latches, to name a few. Somebody hits it the insurance will only give you 'book'.

Well, let's see. Most of those "little" things you list above would have been a concern if I was talking about "restoring" a '56 Chevy but not with '03 technology; those little things are truly not issues and should they become issues, all are inexpensive, weekend DIY fixes, so truly do not factor into my decision. Additionally, after nearly 15 years of driving, the only thing that has hit the vehicle was a tree that I backed into which will be addressed as part of the restoration.

Not that it's any of your business but I have budgeted $10K for this project which will include the following which I have confirmed cost to be $10,170 but I do expect some surprises and know that cost could grow to $11K. Still, IMHO, a bargain compared to giving away a perfectly good vehicle as a trade on a new or used vehicle and kicking in the balance which could be anywhere between $35K and $60K depending on what vehicle I choose to replace it with. Considering I will not finance either option, $11K is looking pretty good right now and, besides, I love my truck. I have also considered the "what if" scenario should the motor or transmission fail sometime in the next five years and I will replace them should that happen and should that happen, being an old gear head, "hot rodding" then could come into play.

At the end of the day, we all have different views on our vehicles; you have yours and I have mine. No disrespect intended but don't you think I have considered all the options available? When I ask about headers, I don't need to be lectured on hot rodding, book value, little things breaking, etc. I want to know what others have experienced that have installed headers on their like vehicles, particularly if the cabin noise level increased and, if so, how much. So, if you can answer that question, I would be glad to hear your experience, otherwise, you need not post a reply.

MOTOR WORK
Under Drive Pulley Kit
Fresh Air Intake
Shorty Headers
Tuner/Chip
Electric Fan kit
Miscellaneous parts, i.e., belts, hoses, fuel and water pump, etc.

EXTERIOR
Dent/Scratch Removal
Complete Paint Job
Tires, 22" Michelin LTX
Weathertech Window Deflector
Wheels, 22" X 9.5 Hurst Stunners

INTERI0R
Weathertech Floor Liner
Weathertech Cargo Line
Reupholster Front Seats
Replace Steering Wheel

SUSPENSION
Shocks, Bilsteins

EDIT: Update to cost; just got final pricing on the motor parts and it looks like I can complete this project for $9774; so things are looking up.[/QUOTE]
You realize you posted on a open 'forum'? I never heard of someone doing a total resto job, on an old SUV. I see by your 'list' it is only rims, paint job and floor mats. The rest of the 'list' are wear and tear items. The pulley kit will give 2-3hp?, A cold air intake can rob power, if used in high temp area, a tuner will cost $350 and force you to use premium. Hey man good luck, nothing personal.

 

[donl]

Well, let's see. Most of those "little" things you list above would have been a concern if I was talking about "restoring" a '56 Chevy but not with '03 technology; those little things are truly not issues and should they become issues, all are inexpensive, weekend DIY fixes, so truly do not factor into my decision. Additionally, after nearly 15 years of driving, the only thing that has hit the vehicle was a tree that I backed into which will be addressed as part of the restoration.

Not that it's any of your business but I have budgeted $10K for this project which will include the following which I have confirmed cost to be $10,170 but I do expect some surprises and know that cost could grow to $11K. Still, IMHO, a bargain compared to giving away a perfectly good vehicle as a trade on a new or used vehicle and kicking in the balance which could be anywhere between $35K and $60K depending on what vehicle I choose to replace it with. Considering I will not finance either option, $11K is looking pretty good right now and, besides, I love my truck. I have also considered the "what if" scenario should the motor or transmission fail sometime in the next five years and I will replace them should that happen and should that happen, being an old gear head, "hot rodding" then could come into play.

At the end of the day, we all have different views on our vehicles; you have yours and I have mine. No disrespect intended but don't you think I have considered all the options available? When I ask about headers, I don't need to be lectured on hot rodding, book value, little things breaking, etc. I want to know what others have experienced that have installed headers on their like vehicles, particularly if the cabin noise level increased and, if so, how much. So, if you can answer that question, I would be glad to hear your experience, otherwise, you need not post a reply.

MOTOR WORK
Under Drive Pulley Kit
Fresh Air Intake
Shorty Headers
Tuner/Chip
Electric Fan kit
Miscellaneous parts, i.e., belts, hoses, fuel and water pump, etc.

EXTERIOR
Dent/Scratch Removal
Complete Paint Job
Tires, 22" Michelin LTX
Weathertech Window Deflector
Wheels, 22" X 9.5 Hurst Stunners

INTERI0R
Weathertech Floor Liner
Weathertech Cargo Line
Reupholster Front Seats
Replace Steering Wheel

SUSPENSION
Shocks, Bilsteins

EDIT: Update to cost; just got final pricing on the motor parts and it looks like I can complete this project for $9774; so things are looking up.

You realize you posted on a open 'forum'? I never heard of someone doing a total resto job, on an old SUV. I see by your 'list' it is only rims, paint job and floor mats. The rest of the 'list' are wear and tear items. The pulley kit will give 2-3hp?, A cold air intake can rob power, if used in high temp area, a tuner will cost $350 and force you to use premium. Hey man good luck, nothing personal.

I posted on an open forum to get whatever replies I could get to the header/noise question; which you apparently don't have an answer for but instead have posted a bunch of dribble of which I am already aware.

I use the term "restoration" rather loosely; you can call it something else if that floats your boat. As I said in my previous posts, the motor modifications are not about gaining HP although I expect to pick up some in the process. It is true that some items are "wear and tear" items but they are not "worn and torn" yet and would also be part of any restoration project. The electric fans clean up the engine compartment; I like that. I could give a shit if I gain HP or not from the pulley kit, so I will take the 2-3 with a grin. We will just have to disagree on the benefit, or not of a CAII, but a four stroke motor is nothing more than a sophisticated air pump and there is a benefit to be had by moving more air through the pump; the headers will help with that. My tuner will cost more than $350 and I will not have to run on premium although I will have that option.

So, as I said in my previous, if you can't answer the header question; go away and bother someone else. Nothing personal.

 

[rjdelp7]

You b

I posted on an open forum to get whatever replies I could get to the header/noise question; which you apparently don't have an answer for but instead have posted a bunch of dribble of which I am already aware.

I use the term "restoration" rather loosely; you can call it something else if that floats your boat. As I said in my previous posts, the motor modifications are not about gaining HP although I expect to pick up some in the process. It is true that some items are "wear and tear" items but they are not "worn and torn" yet and would also be part of any restoration project. The electric fans clean up the engine compartment; I like that. I could give a shit if I gain HP or not from the pulley kit, so I will take the 2-3 with a grin. We will just have to disagree on the benefit, or not of a CAII, but a four stroke motor is nothing more than a sophisticated air pump and there is a benefit to be had by moving more air through the pump; the headers will help with that. My tuner will cost more than $350 and I will not have to run on premium although I will have that option.

So, as I said in my previous, if you can't answer the header question; go away and bother someone else. Nothing personal.

Don't waste members time with this stupidity. You don't like peoples opinion and talk $hit. Bye Felisha.