TSB 23-2250 - 2018-2023 Expedition/Navigator + Other Models - 10R80 Auto Trans + Others - Harsh/Delayed Engagement And/Or Harsh/Delayed Shift

Hellwig said:

The biggest known difference is GM adopts the stand alone transmission air cooler on Suburban/Tahoe, while cheap Ford only gives a transmission heat exchanger on Expeditions.

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BMW2FORD said:

That’s a really good point about the trans temperature. I don’t hear of any GM’s having a CDF drum bushing slip problems. Either they are better quality controlling the parts, using a different supplier or simply running the trans cooler doesn’t let that drums aluminum section expand a lot so the steel sleeve doesn’t slip. I recently rented a 2022 Chevy Suburban with the same 10 speed and the trans never passed 160 degrees after hours of local and highway driving with the outside temp at 100-102 degrees.

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Should that difference in cooling really result in the problems Ford is seeing? I'm inclined to believe it's more about how GM is quality controlling the components that go into the transmission.

Polo08816 said:

Should that difference in cooling really result in the problems Ford is seeing? I'm inclined to believe it's more about how GM is quality controlling the components that go into the transmission.

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It’s for sure something or maybe a combination of a few things. I have to think it’s a bit of quality control and the vendors ford is using versus GM. I only know of one person who added an external air to fluid trans cooler to their Ford F150 but it’s a 5.0 beat to death on a daily basis for drag racing so not many good comparisons.

I just took my 2022 304A in for this. They confirmed the misbehavior, checked a handful of things but made no hardware swaps, and updated the shift strategy. It’s like a whole new truck. Sooooo much better.

Polo08816 said:

That seems like a lot of parts and work. Why not just replace the entire transmission?

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Cost Caps are employed to make that decision, as described in these edited FAQs on the topic...

What is a Cost Cap?
A 'Cost Cap' is a price point, established by the Company, at which the replacement of a powertrain assembly, instead of its repair, becomes the recommended service action.

Why is a Cost Cap needed?
Per the Warranty & Policy Manual, the most cost effective repair must be performed. Cost Caps provide dealerships with a simple process for determining which service action -- repair or replacement -- is the lowest cost.

What is the Cost Cap Tool and why must it be used?
The Cost Cap Tool is a web based tool that provides a repair vs replace decision in support of the warranty policy outlined in the previous question. The online Tool renders a decision based on various internal calculations using preloaded and manually entered dealer, vehicle and repair information.

The Cost Cap Tool must be used on Warranty Covered Repairs, whenever the total cost of the repair to a gas engine, diesel engine, automatic or manual transmission is expected to exceed the dollar threshold listed below and/or when it is likely that the replacement of the powertrain assembly may be the least expensive repair alternative:

Diesel Engines $7000
Gas Engines $2500
Automatic Transmissions $1500
Manual Transmissions $1000

Who is allowed to complete the Cost Cap Tool?
The Cost Cap Tool was designed to be used by the Technician servicing the vehicle as they would have the first hand knowledge of which parts and components would be needed to complete the repair. However, it is the dealership's management responsibility to determine who completes the Cost Cap Tool.

NOTE: In accordance with the Warranty Policy Manual, to complete the Cost Cap Tool and, when applicable, the Warranty or Extended Service Plan Prior Approval processes, the failed powertrain assembly must be disassembled to the point that a comprehensive inspection can be made to determine both the root cause of the concern and the parts and components that would be needed to fully complete its repair. This is required even in the event of a catastrophic failure.

How does the Cost Cap Tool make the repair vs. replace decision?
The Cost Cap "decision" is a comparison of the estimated cost of repairing a powertrain assembly vs. the cost of replacing the assembly. Using certain preloaded and manually inputted information on your dealership, the vehicle and the repair, the online Tool develops both a repair and a replace estimate. A simple comparison of the total costs between these two estimates will provide one of the following decisions:

If the Repair estimate is LESS than the Replace estimate then REPAIRING the powertrain assembly is the recommended service action and, per the Warranty & Policy Manual, the most cost effective repair must be performed.

If the Repair estimate is GREATER than the Replace estimate then REPLACING the powertrain assembly is the recommended service action and, per the Warranty & Policy Manual, the use of a Ford remanufactured engine or transmission assembly is required on warranty covered repairs. Failing to use a Ford remanufactured engine or transmission, when one is available, could result in a chargeback of a previously paid claim.

What do I do once a Cost Cap form is completed?
The Cost Cap Tool will provide the Repair vs. Replace decision on the final page / Decision Page. This Decision page should be printed (hard copy) or stored electronically and kept as part of the dealer documentation, as stated in the Cost Cap Tool.

Next, if either warranty or ESP prior approval is required for this repair (repair or assembly replacement) it must be obtained before the repair is initiated. After this, the repair should be completed as directed, insuring all aspects are fully documented per the Warranty & Policy Manual.

The Cost Cap Tool's Repair vs Replace decisions do not replace or substitute for any Warranty or ESP prior approval programs. Furthermore, it is very important that your dealership's prior approval requirements be understood and followed.

NOTE: The Warranty (Technical Hotline) and Extended Service Plan Prior Approval Centers are authorized to negate a Cost Cap Tool Repair vs Replace Decision and direct / approve a different service action.

I just took in my 22 expedition for this. My 1 year old battery was shot, and they diagnosed the check engine light and Powertrain malfunction/reduced power to be this issue. Attached is a pic of the service they performed. It seemed better for the first 20 or 30 miles, and while I don’t notice any major behavioral issues, there are some odd shifts here and there seemingly in lower gears and then an occasional subtle ‘clunk’ downshifting. Again, nothing that I would feel was very far ‘off’ from what it should be. Anyway, about 50 miles in, following the repairs, I got the ‘service engine soon’ light only. When I got home and shut it down, the light was gone. 50 miles later, same thing, only this time the check engine light came on and was accompanied by the ‘powertrain malfunction-reduced power’ error. Now my questions:

1) I bought the expy in VA and live in NY. Took it in to a local dealer here in NY who performed the service - let’s call it dealer 1 on Nov 6. Coincidentally, I have an appointment at a second dealer, dealer 2 on Monday (4 days from now) that I originally made, but it was 5-6 weeks out and I couldn’t wait at that time. I never cancelled with dealer 2 as I thought there might be an issue (surprise, surprise) or a failure to diagnose etc at dealer 1.

Should I keep the appointment at dealer 2 for Monday that didn’t make the initial “fix”?

I’m going to call dealer 1 again tomorrow to see their availability, but I imagine at best I won’t be able to get back in there until mid Dec.

Either way, it feels like I have a growing big problem on my hands. Rats.

Depending upon what Dealer 2 finds causing your vehicle's current symptoms, their additional warranty cost estimate may push your vehicle's original transmission above its cost cap, and your vehicle may receive a new transmission.

I'd keep the Dealer 2 appointment, if you can manage the near-term inconvenience.

You may want to share Dealer 1's Repair Order with Dealer 2 upfront, to save them a smidge of time researching Warranty History.

Good luck!

HazBeen said:

Depending upon what Dealer 2 finds causing your vehicle's current symptoms, their additional warranty cost estimate may push your vehicle's original transmission above its cost cap, and your vehicle may receive a new transmission.

I'd keep the Dealer 2 appointment, if you can manage the near-term inconvenience.

You may want to share Dealer 1's Repair Order with Dealer 2 upfront, to save them a smidge of time researching Warranty History.

Good luck!

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Appreciate the reply/advice - thanks!

Well, unbelievably after 4 straight days of getting flashed "powertrain malfunction/power reduced" with the check engine light staying on along with Service Engine Soon alerts daily, these all went away 1 day before my appointment. Good thing Im not a conspiracy theorist.

To add insult to injury, I got a lot of pushback from Dealership 2 when I dropped it off this AM for not taking it back to Dealer 1 saying I will be forced to pay their diagnostic fee as it could be "workmanship error". I pushed back, but now it looks like Ill need to complain incessantly to someone to avoid paying this fee or get reimbursed. This likely won't happen.

I need a state inspection, so I told them to confirm if they still see issues and if not, complete the inspection. From there, I guess Ill just ride it out and wait/hope that I don't continue to have these issues. It does seem to be driving OK at the moment.

I am currently battling the same issue with my 2018 Expedition (69,000 miles) . Vehicle had an awkward shift on the highway, about 72 mph and experience a lack of power delivery to the wheels. (ie stuck in high gear).. Shortly after, vehicle threw the P0766 code, and I was able to exit the highway. After a reboot, the vehicle operation returned to "normal" and the "wrench" icon eventually disappeared from the dash. This was right at the beginning of holiday travel. Luckily we were able to make it back to our home dealership without further issue.

Now dealer is recommending a full transmission replacement; estimated at $9000. I'm working with Ford Financial Assistance program to process my claim. I have commented about awkward shifts during routine maintenance visits since I acquired the vehicle at 5000 miles. My position is that I've indicated symptoms of this same issue while the car was under warranty and thus Ford should honor the terms and pay for the replacement.

The saga continues... Anyone else had a successful negotiation with Ford once the vehicle falls outside of the traditional powertrain warranty (or purchased extended warranty)?

The Yeti said:

I am currently battling the same issue with my 2018 Expedition (69,000 miles) . Vehicle had an awkward shift on the highway, about 72 mph and experience a lack of power delivery to the wheels. (ie stuck in high gear).. Shortly after, vehicle threw the P0766 code, and I was able to exit the highway. After a reboot, the vehicle operation returned to "normal" and the "wrench" icon eventually disappeared from the dash. This was right at the beginning of holiday travel. Luckily we were able to make it back to our home dealership without further issue.

Now dealer is recommending a full transmission replacement; estimated at $9000. I'm working with Ford Financial Assistance program to process my claim. I have commented about awkward shifts during routine maintenance visits since I acquired the vehicle at 5000 miles. My position is that I've indicated symptoms of this same issue while the car was under warranty and thus Ford should honor the terms and pay for the replacement.

The saga continues... Anyone else had a successful negotiation with Ford once the vehicle falls outside of the traditional powertrain warranty (or purchased extended warranty)?

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Keep trying with Ford and let us how it goes.

A transmission from Ford was around $3500 couple of month ago (haven’t checked lately). I assume labor will be $1500 at independent transmission shops.

if you are around Chicago, go to BSG Automotive. The owner is a very popular YouTuber and will take good care if you.